Talk:Kyrie

Ancient Greek or simply Greek?

Posted by: Chucktalk Giffen♫ 20:56, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

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Why the change from Greek to Ancient Greek for the text? Who doesn't know that the text is "ancient" ... and, if we must persist, why not use Kýrie (and move the page to "Kýrie")? - and in the transliteration use Kýrie, eléison? Do we now have to go through all the Kýrie settings and Mass settings and change the Language templates, replacing Greek with Ancient Greek? While we are at it, the Kýrie is not a mandatory part of any musical setting of the Mass. Numerous Renaissance Masses do not include the Kýrie (for example, the Missa Gloria Tibi trinitas of John Tavener), especially in those regions where the norm was to use a troped Kýrie.

1. Why give people a choice if you don't want them to use it? It was you who created Category:Works in Ancient Greek and Category:Ancient Greek texts, not me. If the Kyrie isn't Ancient Greek, then what is? Delete these categories then, and let's treat all Greek texts as if nothing had changed in 2,500 years... or else, create a "Modern Greek" category instead.
2. That text was copied from Wikipedia ipsis litteris, do whatever you want with it. —Carlos  04:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Reply by: Chucktalk Giffen♫ 14:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)  Help  Point 1. I created the Ancient Greek category for this work the day after it was posted (in accordance with the language as given by the poster) . As for the Kyrie eleison, the Divine Music Project refers to the language of the Divine Liturgy as being simply Greek. On a similar point, we have almost no clear idea how Latin was originally rendered, but we still call it Latin, not Ancient Latin (and is there such a thing as Modern Latin?). My feeling about the Kyrie eleison is that it is pretty much universally considered Greek (even though it has ancient origins), and it has remained unchanged from ancient times to modern times (as far as I know). On the other hand, there are definite differences between Ancient and Modern Greek, just as there are with Old, Middle, and Modern English. And a phrase such as "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done" from the Lord's Prayer is still considered English (it is not Middle or Old English), even though many branches of English/American Christianity render it differently (such as "Your kingdom..."). The Ancient Greek category is suitable for texts reliably identifiable as ancient and not the same as in modern usage (at least that's what I thought I was doing). If the "Pater Hämon" is really the normative Greek version of the Lord's Prayer in use today, then it's category should be changed from Ancient Greek to Greek. But for this, I think an expert would have to weigh in on the issue. Point 2. Wikipedia is often wrong (just as we are), especially on musical matters, and I'll try and track down the Wikipedia reference and change it (if it hasn't been changed already). Note: I found the reference at Wikipedia and have now corrected it.