User talk:Tim Henderson

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Lilypond excerpts

Hi Tim. Thanks for adding LilyPond excerpts for the following pages - Adeste Fideles, Welsh (Come thou long expected Jesus) (Anonymous) and Crimond. I really think having the tune in front of you when you arrive at a hymn tune page is useful (especially as I can hardly ever remember the name of the tune!) There was just one thing missing from the pages - the code which places the page in Category:LilyPond excerpts. I've added it to those pages. I also added a few slurs to Crimond which I hope are correct. I have a few questions I'm afraid... what text did you use as the basis for the slurs on Adeste Fideles? Also, do we really have no idea who wrote "Welsh"? May I ask your source for the editon? Only, we should have a tune page for that hymn too but I can't find any info about it on the web. Cheers --Bobnotts talk 15:24, 2 December 2007 (PST)

Interestingly enough, Webbe added phrasing slurs to Adeste Fideles so as to fit an Long Meter text to the tune. The Latiin text for the first stanza of the hymn is in meter 12 10 11. 77. 10 (or 12 10. 11 10, since in the tune the last line Venite, adoremus Dominum is preceded by the twice-repeated Venite, adoremus. The meter added here by John is 12 12 12. 77. 12. With all the slurs removed from the LilyPond melody, there are not enough notes to fit that meter. As given (but without any slurs), the meter would probably be 12 11 10. 77. 11 or 12 11 11. 67. 11. Some English language hymnals give the meter variously as Irregular, Irregular with refrain.
Translations of the "Adeste fideles" text (such as into English) sometimes require modification of the original Latin meter, and in hymnbooks, it is often given as Irregular. The tune has also been shoe-horned to fit other meters, such as the 11 11. 11 11 text "How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord" (and the tune is listed in the metrical indices under both Irregular with refrain and 11 11. 11 11). All this presents a sticky wicket for metrization. As for the tune itself, I'm of the opinion that slurs (and note repetitions) not in the original should be removed. However, it may still take some time and research. -- Chucktalk Giffen 07:18, 3 December 2007 (PST)
I think I took the slurs for Adeste Fideles directly from my transcription of Webbe's Torbay (transcribed at the desk in the BL and I didn't get a photocopy !). The HTI entry makes the understatement : " There is much variation in the distribution of syllables to the notes of this tune."
Regarding Welsh, I have no more info on the original composer. HTI credits Knibb with the first published version in 1760 closely followed by Madan including it in the Lock Hospital Collection (1762). Knibb's book is entitled "Knibb, Thomas]. The Psalm Singers Help, being a Collection of Tunes in three parts, that are now us’d in the several dissenting congregations in London." and he has the text "Love divine, all love excelling". My source is Rippon's tunebook and he uses the Come thou fount text. I previously gave some info to Noel about the Rippon tunebook on the talkpage for Sicilian Mariners -
As far as the tunes are concerned, a separate "A Selection of Psalm and Hymn Tunes from the best authors in three and four parts adapted principally to Dr Watts's Hymns and Psalms and to Dr. Rippon's Selection of Hymns containing in a greater variety than any other volume extant the most approved compositions which are used in London and throughout England; Also many original tunes never before printed, the whole forming a publication of above three hundred tunes, odes etc by John Rippon DD." First published 1792. I've got the thirteenth edition c.1825 (according to the Hymn Tune Index). My guess is the original plates were reused with more stuff being added at the back as new editions were issued. I believe that the main editor of the music was Thomas Walker - who issued his own "Walker's Companion to Dr. Rippon's Tune Book " (I've got the tenth edition 1831). In the preface to that he states : "The universal acceptance which Dr. Rippon's Seletion of Tunes has met with from the public, is fully evinced by the general circulation it has obtained ; and by the many thousands of copies which have been sold; this is highly grateful to the Editor (i.e. Walker !), particularly as it was a juvenile performance, a first attempt; and although years have rolled on, and experience has, in some degree, matured his judgement, yet he can say, that the same reasons which induced him to select the Tunes, still remain in force for preserving the body of the work entire as it is. To meet the taste of the public, Supplement has been added to Supplement, until the book has grown almost too large for the pocket..." Tim Henderson 12:46, 4 December 2007 (PST)