User talk:Bobnotts: Difference between revisions

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<center><big>'''As I approach my university finals, I will have limited amounts of time on CPDL. If your query is urgent, I suggest you post it on the [[CW:BB|Bulletin Board]]. I will be back for business as usual from Friday 23rd May.'''</big><br>--[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 00:07, 15 May 2008 (PDT)</center>
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<center><big>'''I am on holiday without internet access from 8th till 12th April. If you leave a message here, I will answer it as soon as possible after I get back.'''</big> --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 09:29, 6 April 2008 (PDT)</center>
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<div class="plainlinks" style="{{{extra-style|}}}; background-color: {{{bgcolor|#D2FFFF}}};  border: 2px solid {{{border-color|#0000B6}}}; width: {{{width|}}}; color: {{{color|black}}}; margin: 2em 0 1em; padding: .5em 1em; clear: both;">'''Hello!''' Welcome to the talk page of Bobnotts, aka Robert Nottingham. Feel free to leave questions and comments on this page about any contributions I've made to CPDL as a wiki editor or as a score editor/transcriber. You may also contact me by email: robertnottingham6 AT hotmail DOT com (replacing "AT" and "DOT" with "@" and ".") or on the [http://www.choralwiki.org/phpBB2/privmsg.php?mode=post CPDL forums], username: bobnotts.
'''Please use my talk page in the following manner:'''
*'''start new discussions''' by clicking on the "+" tab next to "edit" at the top of the page or [{{fullurl:{{ns:3}}:{{PAGENAMEE}}|action=edit&section=new}} <span style="color: {{{linkcolor|#0000B6}}};"> click here</span>],
*'''continue discussions''' by clicking on the "edit" link directly right of the appropriate title below,
*and [[ChoralWiki:Signatures|'''sign your posts''']] by typing four tildes afterwards (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>).
If you have left a message on this page, I will reply here unless you request that I reply on your talk page. Because of this, you may find it useful to temporarily [{{fullurl:{{ns:3}}:{{PAGENAMEE}}|action=watch}} <span style="color: {{{linkcolor|#0000B6}}};"> watch this page</span>]. If I have left a message on your talk page, '''please reply there'''. I will have your talk page on my watch list and I watch the [[Special:Recentchanges|recent changes]] like a hawk so I'll see your message anyway. The reason for this is to keep the discussion together. Thank you for your co-operation!</div>
'''Archives:'''
*[[/Archive 1|1 (November 2006 - August 2007)]]
*[[/Archive 2|2 (September 2007 - February 2008)]]
*[[/Archive 3|3 (February 2008 - )]]
==Drink to me only==
Bob, I have added a new record for "drink to me only". In my view the work was clearly originally composed by Callcott. Philip Legge does not seem to accept that. So the "traditional" version within his busking book is probably a harmonisation of Callcott's original. The same apoplies to the later edition added earlier this month. In any event the two version are sufficiently different to merit separate entries. [[User:Jgoodliffe|Jgoodliffe]]
== Add New Works form ==
Hi Robert,
I'm still working working on the form and the results, and I'm a bit puzzled how to 'render' part of larger work. Should it come directly under the title? e.g.<br>
'''Title''': ''Just a title, Op. 65, No. 7''<br>
'''Part of''': ''Larger work, Op. 65''<br>
Also I don't know what to do with the second composer entry, you requested. Yours, [[User:Arie|Arie]] 02:10, 1 May 2008 (PDT)
I also noticed that the template <nowiki>{{Acap}}</nowiki> renders as:<br>
'''Instruments''': [[:Category:A cappella|a cappella]]<br>
whereas e.g. <nowiki>{{OrgAcc}}</nowiki> just gives the category.
IMHO all the templates concerning instrumentation should render the same way, in order to maintain the PHP-script easier. [[User:Arie|Arie]] 06:11, 1 May 2008 (PDT)
:Hi Arie. I've replied on [[ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues]]. Regards --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 01:10, 2 May 2008 (PDT)
== More superfluous links ==
Hi Bob, thanks for deleting the redirs created with my page moves! If you don't mind, there are still 39 of these to delete. If you look in [[Special:Recentchanges&limit=250|Recent changes (last 250 edits)]], you will see them under (move log) on 07-May. They are too many for me to tag each one with a delnow template. Thank you again! -- [[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 03:03, 8 May 2008 (PDT)
: Hi Carlos.  I'll jump in here (I hope I'm not too nosey!).  You can tag the redirects by typing <nowiki>{{subst:delnow|superfl redir|~~~~}}</nowiki> on the superfluous redirects.  That way, we can catch them even if several days (or pages of Recent changes) have elapsed.  I'm rather strapped for time right now, so I'm not sure if I'll get to deleting them right away, before Rob has a chance to - but who knows, maybe I will. :) -- [[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 05:04, 8 May 2008 (PDT)
::Hi Chuck, thanks for your tip, in fact I've been using <nowiki>{{subst:delnow|...}}</nowiki> here and there, but this time I moved too many pages to new names and was a bit too lazy to go back to each of the redirects (39 left for deletion) to tag each one of them with this template. I imagine you admins all use the "Enhanced recent changes (JavaScript)" option (under Recent Changes tab in Preferences), and this option is great because it does the hard work of gathering related edits in topics, thus making easier the task of deleting redirects, in this case. :) -- [[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 20:15, 8 May 2008 (PDT)
:::Hi Carlos. Basically, I'm taking this approach: if I see lots of page moves in the recent changes, like earlier, then I'll probably go ahead and delete the redirects. However, deleting redirects doesn't really feature high on my CPDL priority list so I won't be going into the special pages to hunt them out (unless I'm particularly bored!) However, if there are pages listed in the immediate delete category, I will aim to delete them if appropriate, within a reasonable time of them being marked as such, even though ordinarily, they wouldn't be a priority to me. Incidentally, I don't use the JavaScript recent changes thing-e-me-bob because I didn't find it particularly useful the last time I switched it on. I'll forgive you for the invasion, Chuck! --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 00:42, 9 May 2008 (PDT)
::::Bob, you are right in giving higher priority to nobler tasks! :) In fact this is the kind of dirty job no one really likes doing; the ideal would be if a script could automatically remove items from the 'immediate delete' category from time to time... but I really appreciate the cleaning up you and Chuck are constantly doing. And CPDL servers probably appreciate it too, having less pages to index! :) I'll tag those pages for deletion so you can erase them without hurry, ok? I also started checking the complete list of redirects and tagging those that are junk; these too can be dealt with in no rush. -- [[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 02:48, 9 May 2008 (PDT)
== What is happening at CPDL? ==
== What is happening at CPDL? ==


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Max a.k.a. --[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 05:24, 12 May 2008 (PDT)
Max a.k.a. --[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 05:24, 12 May 2008 (PDT)


:Hi Max. Thanks for your message. I'm fully aware that you tried to donate some money to help CPDL and that you found it imposible to do so. Allow me to thank you for your goodwill in doing this and also in offering a new Bulletin Board for CPDL's use. The offer was very generous. Unfortunately, there are certain parts of CPDL that no-one except Raf can change, and he is not active on the project at the moment and he has not been forthcoming with his reasons for this, nor has he suggested when (or if) he will be active on the project again. One of the parts that only Raf can change is the navigation menu on the left of every page. At the moment, the link for the forums is to the old forums and we can't change that. So, that's the main reason why your kind offer wasn't accepted - we figured it would confuse users even more if CPDL apparently had 2 forums... Other things that only Raf can do is - ensure the site is backed up regularly and completely, update the Media Wiki installation and add new add ons for it, and fix & update the forum.
:Hi Max. Thanks for your message. I'm fully aware that you tried to donate some money to help CPDL and that you found it impossible to do so. Allow me to thank you for your goodwill in doing this and also in offering a new Bulletin Board for CPDL's use. The offer was very generous. Unfortunately, there are certain parts of CPDL that no-one except Raf can change, and he is not active on the project at the moment and he has not been forthcoming with his reasons for this, nor has he suggested when (or if) he will be active on the project again. One of the parts that only Raf can change is the navigation menu on the left of every page. At the moment, the link for the forums is to the old forums and we can't change that. So, that's the main reason why your kind offer wasn't accepted - we figured it would confuse users even more if CPDL apparently had 2 forums... Other things that only Raf can do is - ensure the site is backed up regularly and completely, update the Media Wiki installation and add new add ons for it, and fix & update the forum.


:You're right that a lot of the impetus of CPDL has been lost and a figurehead (like Jimmy Wales on Wikipedia) tends to encourage people to work together in one direction. At the moment, there are not nearly enough active users who are not just contributing new editions and texts and translations. Of course, I don't mean to belittle the efforts of contributors - CPDL would be nothing without its content, but there need to be more people doing admin related jobs such as moving pages, updating pages with the new templates that have recently been introduced, writing new help pages and formaliseing policy. At the present, there are 3 active users doing this stuff - me, [[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]] and a very welcome addition to the team, [[User:Carlos|Carlos]]. And whilst we would love to have the same level of framework in terms of policy as, say, Wikipedia, we just don't have the time to commit to it. Basically at the moment we're doing a little better than treading water. One of the ways we are moving forward is the new Add Works form which, when complete, will make people's lives considerably easier. I'd like to increase participation in CPDL by enhancing the community portal and improving documentation. I'll be able to start doing this in a couple of weeks. Hopefully, it will then become obvious as to how you can help :-)  Thanks for your concern and support. --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 01:08, 15 May 2008 (PDT)
:You're right that a lot of the impetus of CPDL has been lost and a figurehead (like Jimmy Wales on Wikipedia) tends to encourage people to work together in one direction. At the moment, there are not nearly enough active users who are not just contributing new editions and texts and translations. Of course, I don't mean to belittle the efforts of contributors - CPDL would be nothing without its content, but there need to be more people doing admin related jobs such as moving pages, updating pages with the new templates that have recently been introduced, writing new help pages and formaliseing policy. At the present, there are 3 active users doing this stuff - me, [[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]] and a very welcome addition to the team, [[User:Carlos|Carlos]]. And whilst we would love to have the same level of framework in terms of policy as, say, Wikipedia, we just don't have the time to commit to it. Basically at the moment we're doing a little better than treading water. One of the ways we are moving forward is the new Add Works form which, when complete, will make people's lives considerably easier. I'd like to increase participation in CPDL by enhancing the community portal and improving documentation. I'll be able to start doing this in a couple of weeks. Hopefully, it will then become obvious as to how you can help :-)  Thanks for your concern and support. --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 01:08, 15 May 2008 (PDT)
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:::By the way, would Rafael be cool with some update to his user page that tells people where support or feedback should be sent now? Also, his page has an box encouraging people to report broken links or errors. That should be redirected to others. I will understand if you folks have your hands busy and can't get to my more gnat-like questions. --[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 00:04, 27 July 2008 (PDT)
:::By the way, would Rafael be cool with some update to his user page that tells people where support or feedback should be sent now? Also, his page has an box encouraging people to report broken links or errors. That should be redirected to others. I will understand if you folks have your hands busy and can't get to my more gnat-like questions. --[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 00:04, 27 July 2008 (PDT)


== Transpositions ==
::::Hi Vaarky. The best way you can help at the moment is to update score pages with templates. I reckon the best way to proceed is to familiarise yourself with all the templates listed [[Help:CPDL Templates|here]] and [[:Category:Templates|here]]. It would also be a good idea to review the following edits that I've made recently which incorporate the new templates: [http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php?title=In_pace_(William_Blitheman)&diff=prev&oldid=113440] [http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php?title=In_pace_(John_Taverner)&diff=prev&oldid=113441] [http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php?title=The_Erl_King_(John_Wall_Callcott)&diff=prev&oldid=113357] [http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php?title=Heidenr%C3%B6slein_(Heinrich_Werner)&diff=prev&oldid=113173] [http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php?title=Early_one_morning_(Traditional)&diff=prev&oldid=113366] [http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php?title=Dum_Transisset_Sabbatum_(John_Taverner)&diff=prev&oldid=113443] [http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php?title=Lord_Bless_Us_and_Keep_Us%2C_The_(Robert_White)&diff=prev&oldid=113442] Those are the sort of "template update" edits that would be most useful, so that scores are categorised as a cappella, or as having piano accompaniment, or in English, or by William Byrd, for example. One of my bug bears is incorrect score icons when it comes to external links - should be {{net}} when not pointing directly to a file. [[Special:Whatlinkshere/User:Marco-cipoo.net|These pages]] contain editions which are hosted externally (often the icons haven't been updated) so if you fancy getting your teeth stuck into something, have a go at that. I'll let you know if you mess something up! Once you've learned the ropes, it would be great if you could add something to the volunteers page.
 
Hi Rob, I saw that you removed a few works from [[Adrian Cuello]]'s page. I understand your point, they aren't really original compositions, but those that I saw were not simple transpositions too, he did a lot of "rewriting" to adapt them for female choir.
Do you think he could leave them under a specific section in his composer page, say, ''Re-arrangements''? If not, perhaps in his user page... but I think that his "intellectual" work on these scores deserved being mentioned on his composer page. I don't know if there's already a consensus on this subject here at CPDL, if so please let me know. -- [[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 23:27, 14 May 2008 (PDT)
:Hi Carlos. I have to say that I didn't look closely at the level of arrangement that Adrian made to the works. The ones that I skimmed over I compared to the originals and saw mainly just transposition. If you have any specific references to hand, I'd like to take a closer look. I have to say that I'm against listing so-called "arrangements" on individuals' composer pages as, in my opinion, anything but considerable re-writing isn't arrangement - it's editing. However, I'd think it's fine for an editor to list his editions on his editor page like Chuck and I have. Now I realise this may develop into something of a discussion of semantics, not the actual issue, so here are a few example that I think are useful:
:#[[User:David Fraser|David Fraser]] has edited many works by [[William Byrd]]. Byrd often wrote for ATB or subdivisions of that, ATTB, AATB, etc. I know that Dave often transposes some of Byrd's works for SATB as most choirs use those forces, but I would never consider him an arranger because of this transposition, rather this is a part of editing - making a work which was composed some time ago suitable for modern day performance.
:#[[User:Denis Mason]] has made 2 editions of [[Cantique de Jean Racine, Op. 11 (Gabriel Fauré)|Cantique de Jean Racine]] by [[Gabriel Fauré]], one for SSA and one for TBB. Are those arrangements? I'm not sure but they're not listed on his composer page (he doesn't have one), nor on his editor page.
:So I guess it comes down to the amount of re-writing. If there's some considerable re-writing then it's probably fair to call it an arrangement. If the person has just swapped a few clefs around then I don't think that counts... --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 19:30, 23 May 2008 (PDT)
 
== [[User:Thierry]] ==
 
Hi Rob, thanks for fixing things in [[User:Thierry|Thierry]]'s userpage, I erroneously thought his username was Thierry Buclin and moved his talk page with no reason. Must remember to look more carefully when a '''User:''' page is ''really'' a userpage. :)  -- [[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 02:31, 24 May 2008 (PDT)
:No problem :-) --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 04:49, 24 May 2008 (PDT)
 
== Add works form problems ==
 
Hi Rob,
 
I tried to use the create works page to put up a new mass setting i've finally finished.. after entering all the info, i clicked submit and got the error message "unable to update table". Any help or advice of what's going on? Thanks [[User:Marchesa|Paul R. Marchesano]]
 
:Hi Paul. You get this error message when you use an apostrophe without putting a backslash before it. Simply follow the instructions at the top of the page, "Technical note: If you use an apostrophe, you must use a backslash before it, or the program will not work correctly" and you should be fine. Please note that all movements of a mass should be added to the same score pages. Hope that helps. --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 07:04, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
 
::Thanks for adding the composer to the Mass page. I didn't have an apostrophe, but I did have quotation marks. That may have done it. --Paul [[User:Marchesa|Marchesa]] 13:52, 3 June 2008 (PDT)
 
== Mulitple editions ==
 
Hi Rob.  I see you have been removing parentheses around multiple editions listings on the [[Victoria]] page by typing out, eg. ''3 editions available''.  I'm not sure I understand your rationale behind this, since from earliest times we have had such items appear as ''(3 editions available)''.  See [[Template:3editions]], [[Template:Editions]], etc.  As far as I'm concerned, the Victoria page (which I had adopted) looks horrible with that material not enclosed in parentheses ... the italics of the work title conflict with the italics in the number of editions information.  Moreover, the " - " that has been removed makes it look even worse.  I think that any such changes in style should '''not''' be made by hand by circumventing the templates already in place.  If change is warranted, it should be made with the templates themselves.  As for the Victoria page, I'm reverting all the editions information back to templates.  The one change I am contemplating (with the templates) is to have them read, eg. "(''3 editions'')" ... ie. not including the parentheses themselves inside italics. -- [[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 02:48, 27 June 2008 (PDT)
:Hi Chuck. I meant to reply to this a couple of days ago and got distracted... the reason for my removing the editions templates was that I saw a development for [[Template:Editions]] which we could introduce. We know how many score pages there are on CPDL, but we don't know how many editions there are since the catalogue system has been skewed by people misusing the add works form. Would it be useful to know how many editions there are on CPDL? Maybe. If so, I think the best way to determine this would be to use the existing [[Template:Editions]] to add a category to the score page to categorise it as "Works with 2 editions" or "Works with 3 editions" etc. Then we could find out how many editions are on CPDL. Now, if the template is used on composer pages too, this would, of course, mess up the count. What do you think about extending [[Template:Editions]]? --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 23:38, 28 June 2008 (PDT)
 
:: Hi Rob.  Are you trying to count CPDL number used or what?  I'm not sure what counstitutes an "edition", since, variously, people have used more than one edition number for what amounts to a single edition with separate CPDL numbers for individual movements or even individual paper sizes, while others have put these under one CPDL number.  I strongly suspect that a simple-minded thing like the editions template is going to fill the bill.
:: '''If''' we had some accurate idea as to what it is we wish to count, then the editions template might be expanded to included it, or, more likely, it might not (for example for a work with major movements, some of which have differing numbers of editions, currently usually covered under the rubric "multiple editions").  Furthermore, if we ever do get a handle on what it is we wish to count, then a separate template for the counting purposes should be added to the works pages. At present, the editions template '''does not''' count CPDL numbers, because of the above-mentioned problem of multiple CPDL numbers being used for what really is a single edition.  Neither does it count PDFs or MIDIs.  What the editions template does when it provides a number (sometimes it does not!) is to give a '''subjective count''' of the number of editions available, and in its present form, I think it is something we should leave pretty much alone, at least for the present.
:: '''If''' tracking and counting CPDL numbers is the goal (and I think it probably should be a goal, since CPDL numbers are like "catalog numbers"), then I think something like <nowiki>[[Category:CPDL jklmn]]</nowiki> should be added to the page containing the CPDL number "ijklmn", and this category page should itself be categorised <nowiki>[[Category:CPDL numbers| jklmn]]</nowiki>.  This would make the Category:CPDL numbers a complete list of all individual CPDL numbers, each linked to the page containing the edition information. -- [[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 02:05, 30 June 2008 (PDT)
 
:::I'm not really sure I understand the last part of what you said there, Chuck. Why create c.15,000 categories on the wiki just to check the catalogue numbering system? Surely there's an easier way? Anyway, the idea wasn't to count CPDL numbers used instead the number of editions on CPDL. The latest CPDL number is 17407 but I we both know there are many fewer than 17407 editions on CPDL... as for what constitutes an edition, we could go into that later... I know exactly what [[Template:Editions]] does at the moment and I think that we wouldn't have to have a subjective decision - we could make guidelines. Thanks for the award, btw! Is there going to be an alto clef award?! --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 07:45, 30 June 2008 (PDT)
 
== And the envelope, please...  ==
 
{| style="border: 1px solid {{{border|gray}}}; background-color: {{{color|#fff7e7}}};"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle"| [[Image:Bass clef.gif]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Bass Clef award'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | &nbsp; '''for basic work essential to the functioning of CPDL'''<br>
is hereby awarded to '''[[User:bobnotts|Robert Nottingham]]''' for tireless, countless, ongoing and steady edits and contributions to the overall look and feel of CPDL. &mdash; [[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]]
|}
 
== Your IMSLP Forum Posting ==
 
Hi Bob,  Might want to get back on the IMSLP forum.  David Newman (owner of the "Art Song Central" site has objected to your proposed removal of his PDF-file "Branding" in his Art Song Central PDF files.  If you read the comments on his user page you will see he proposes
his PDF files be only linked to, and Chuck recently deleted all the copies of his PDF files which were on CPDL, in favor of remote links to the same files.  (See Ralph Vaughan Williams, "Songs of Travel")
 
Your IMSLP Forums post in reference:
 
I've just discovered Art Song Central and I want to copy all the PDFs over to IMSLP. Can someone explain how to remove the text at the bottom of the PDF pages? I have Acrobat 6.0. Alternatively, is someone willing to remove this text themselves? I couldn't find a help file on this which is why I'm asking here. I'd be happy to write a help page if/when I work this process out!
Cheers, Rob
 
Feel free to delete this post after you have read it. [[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 06:33, 8 July 2008 (PDT)
 
== Blank page ==


Hi Rob, I couldn't understand your reasoning in restoring this [[ChoralWiki:Privacy policy|blank page]] and protecting it for admins access only. Do you intend to begin editing it soon? [[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] has offered to create a text draft for this page and I thought it would make more sense to let her recreate the page only when she had the draft ready. —[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;[http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/User_talk:Carlos http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/skins/monobook/mail_icon.gif] 00:29, 28 July 2008 (PDT)
::::The submit error box on Raf's page simply invites the user to create a new page with the title that they enter in the box, so I don't see a problem with leaving it as it is at the moment. In terms of backups, I reckon this is probably best continued in the same manner as it has been before. It is one of the procedures that I and others will be looking to review over the next couple of months. Thanks for your enthusiasm! --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 06:23, 29 July 2008 (PDT)
:Hi Carlos. I blanked the page and protected it for the same reason that I blanked it and protected it before you deleted it, "so that spam bots cannot create the page which is potentially a system page". I don't plan on editing it any time soon but if Vaarky fancies writing a draft, she can do so on a user sub-page. As site policy, it should be checked and ratified by admins before being published in my opinion. --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 06:00, 28 July 2008 (PDT)
::Thanks for trying to make it more convenient for me. FWIW, the approach Carlos suggested makes perfect sense to me. A draft for something like this is best reviewed in the discussion page section, so it doesn't create an impression that the document is ratified by the site's administrators until it actually has been. Requiring admin approval for edits to a page that purports to represent CPDL policy sounds like a fine idea. --[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 10:10, 28 July 2008 (PDT)
:::Hi Rob, now I understood what you did! But isn't it a bit weird to maintain a page protected and empty just to avoid it being spammed? What do you think if we put some text on it (like, "Under construction" :), or even a redirect to the [[Main Page]], anything that would make it more meaningful/useful until we have a true policy to show. If you like the idea, please feel free to do what you think is best. —[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;[http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/User_talk:Carlos http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/skins/monobook/mail_icon.gif] 13:54, 28 July 2008 (PDT)
::::(Sorry, I meant the approach Rob suggested (protecting it) when I wrote Carlos) --[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 14:34, 28 July 2008 (PDT)
:::::I'd say it's not weird, Carlos, since clicking on it and being redirected to the main page would just be annoying and having a sign which says "under construction" is rather obvious if the page is empty. Some spam edits slip through the net and I wouldn't want users to click on what seems like an official page to arrive at a load of spam links. You can edit it if you feel strongly about the subject. --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 06:08, 29 July 2008 (PDT)

Revision as of 13:23, 29 July 2008

What is happening at CPDL?

Hi Rob, I noted that you commented out the donation page from the main CPDL page. This seems consistent with my experience: I sent a donation cheque to the address specified in the donation page, and the cheque was returned as undeliverable, as if Raf Ornes were not receiving donations for CPDL.

A number of CPDL issues, described in the "ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues" of the Forum, and requiring Raf Ornes' intervention, are pending since some time. I also offered to CPDL a new phpBB3 forum so as to replace, at least temporarily, the old phpBB2 forum that is out of order since many weeks, but nothing happened.

I'm under the impression that CPDL is loosing the energy that Raf provided since its foundation. Am I wrong? What's happening? Can we help?

Max a.k.a. --Choralia 05:24, 12 May 2008 (PDT)

Hi Max. Thanks for your message. I'm fully aware that you tried to donate some money to help CPDL and that you found it impossible to do so. Allow me to thank you for your goodwill in doing this and also in offering a new Bulletin Board for CPDL's use. The offer was very generous. Unfortunately, there are certain parts of CPDL that no-one except Raf can change, and he is not active on the project at the moment and he has not been forthcoming with his reasons for this, nor has he suggested when (or if) he will be active on the project again. One of the parts that only Raf can change is the navigation menu on the left of every page. At the moment, the link for the forums is to the old forums and we can't change that. So, that's the main reason why your kind offer wasn't accepted - we figured it would confuse users even more if CPDL apparently had 2 forums... Other things that only Raf can do is - ensure the site is backed up regularly and completely, update the Media Wiki installation and add new add ons for it, and fix & update the forum.
You're right that a lot of the impetus of CPDL has been lost and a figurehead (like Jimmy Wales on Wikipedia) tends to encourage people to work together in one direction. At the moment, there are not nearly enough active users who are not just contributing new editions and texts and translations. Of course, I don't mean to belittle the efforts of contributors - CPDL would be nothing without its content, but there need to be more people doing admin related jobs such as moving pages, updating pages with the new templates that have recently been introduced, writing new help pages and formaliseing policy. At the present, there are 3 active users doing this stuff - me, Chuck and a very welcome addition to the team, Carlos. And whilst we would love to have the same level of framework in terms of policy as, say, Wikipedia, we just don't have the time to commit to it. Basically at the moment we're doing a little better than treading water. One of the ways we are moving forward is the new Add Works form which, when complete, will make people's lives considerably easier. I'd like to increase participation in CPDL by enhancing the community portal and improving documentation. I'll be able to start doing this in a couple of weeks. Hopefully, it will then become obvious as to how you can help :-) Thanks for your concern and support. --Bobnotts talk 01:08, 15 May 2008 (PDT)
Hi Rob, I definitely have a professional bias. My motto is "no single point of failure", i.e., there must be a back-up for everything, including people. From my professional perspective, having no back-up for Raf is a big risk for CPDL. One year ago CPDL had a major failure. At that time, the forum acted as a back-up resource: even though the scores were temporarily unavailable, the community remained in touch, and this somewhat mitigated the effects of the failure. If the same problem occurs today on the wiki platform, all the communicatons are lost, and it would be worse. So, I appreciate your effort creating better templates, improving documentation, and so on, but I'm more worried about loosing all the work made so far by so many people.
Anyway, let's wait that Raf is back on the project, hopefully before a major problem occurs. If you have any tasks for me, I'll be happy to help. A small suggestion about the phpBB2 forum: perhaps somebody (you? Chuck?) have forum credentials allowing to add a link on the top of the forum page, or even to re-direct the forum to another URL. If so, you may add a link or re-direct the phpBB2 forum to my phpBB3 forum. As the phpBB2 forum remains the "gateway" to the back-up phpBB3 forum, the relationship between the twos (phpBB2 as "primary", phpBB3 as "back-up") should be reasonably clear for everybody. The benefit, of course, is that there will be a back-up forum available in the case of problems on this wiki platform. --Choralia 05:33, 15 May 2008 (PDT)
Can you say more about the transition now that Rafael is withdrawing? In particular, I (and possibly others) would be interested in how this affects the back-up situation--any way we can help with remote back-up even if it isn't 100% comprehensive? Are there higher priority ways people can help than with translations or fixing broken links (maybe even something that can be added to the volunteer page). I'd like to hear more about the some of the tasks you mentioned above (updating pages with recently created templates, writing new help pages, formaliseing policy).
By the way, would Rafael be cool with some update to his user page that tells people where support or feedback should be sent now? Also, his page has an box encouraging people to report broken links or errors. That should be redirected to others. I will understand if you folks have your hands busy and can't get to my more gnat-like questions. --Vaarky 00:04, 27 July 2008 (PDT)
Hi Vaarky. The best way you can help at the moment is to update score pages with templates. I reckon the best way to proceed is to familiarise yourself with all the templates listed here and here. It would also be a good idea to review the following edits that I've made recently which incorporate the new templates: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Those are the sort of "template update" edits that would be most useful, so that scores are categorised as a cappella, or as having piano accompaniment, or in English, or by William Byrd, for example. One of my bug bears is incorrect score icons when it comes to external links - should be Network.png when not pointing directly to a file. These pages contain editions which are hosted externally (often the icons haven't been updated) so if you fancy getting your teeth stuck into something, have a go at that. I'll let you know if you mess something up! Once you've learned the ropes, it would be great if you could add something to the volunteers page.
The submit error box on Raf's page simply invites the user to create a new page with the title that they enter in the box, so I don't see a problem with leaving it as it is at the moment. In terms of backups, I reckon this is probably best continued in the same manner as it has been before. It is one of the procedures that I and others will be looking to review over the next couple of months. Thanks for your enthusiasm! --Bobnotts talk 06:23, 29 July 2008 (PDT)
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