ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues

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Operation and implementation issues

This page is part of the ChoralWiki:Bulletin board.

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Announcements and special topics (most recent first)

Use of this forum


This forum is for more techincal discussions of ChoralWiki implementation and operation at CPDL, primarily of interest to admins and others doing editing of pages at CPDL. Some topics of a more technical nature or involving CPDL policy from CPDL support, help, and feedback will be moved here.

General topics (most recent first)

Classification of solo works as Bass, Tenor, Alto, Soprano solos


Using the low note/high note specification for an edition I need to know what makes a work have a particular voicepart's solo designation. Need the same definitions for LOW, MEDIUM,and HIGH Voice. ie. Range: B3 - E♭5 Does this make it Tenor solo ? Bass solo ?

Editor/contributor names


In this edit I changed the contributor's name in a score entry added by John Henry Fowler from "Resneck" to "IMSLP". As some of you will be aware, IMSLP doesn't require contributors to give their real names, instead the scanner's username is listed. I have previously changed "Feldmahler" to "Edward W. Guo" as this is the name given on his user page, however, Resneck doesn't list his/her name. I think in the future, where a person's real name cannot be obtained, we should have the name of the resource that they contributed to in the first place. This only refers to when anyone but the editor or contributor adds the work to CPDL. I'm going away tomorrow but I'm sure the community will make the right decision on this without any further input from me.

Franz Schubert


Is Franz Schubert in the category "Classical composer", "Romantic composer", or both ? Currently his composer page is classified as both, and the various works pages are 50/50 Classical music/Romantic music.

  • Posted by: —Carlos mail_icon.gif 04:34, 1 August 2008 (PDT)

Hi John, as you know it's not uncommon to have composers who lived in a transition period between two styles (as for example Monteverdi and Beethoven) and who composed in both "old" and "new" styles or in a blend of both. This may be the case of Schubert, and hence his composer page cites both categories. As for his works, they would have to be analyzed one by one to decide toward which style they tend more, though this is a somewhat subjective choice.

The Wikipedia article about him says the following:

"While he was clearly influenced by the Classical sonata forms of Mozart and Beethoven (his early works, among them notably the 5th Symphony, are particularly Mozartean), his formal structures and his developments tend to give the impression more of melodic development than of harmonic drama. This combination of Classical form and long-breathed Romantic melody sometimes lends them a discursive style. His harmonic innovations include movements in which the first section ends in the key of the subdominant rather than the dominant. Schubert's practice here was a forerunner of the common Romantic technique of relaxing, rather than raising, tension in the middle of a movement, with final resolution postponed to the very end."

In fact, Wikipedia also categorizes Schubert both as a Classical composer and as a Romantic composer. As another example, Wikipedia classifies Gustav Mahler both as a 20th century classical composer and as a Romantic composer, which should come as no surprise to those who know Mahler's music. Even Arnold Schoenberg (for example, in the earlier parts of his monumental oratorio Gurre-Lieder) wrote in the Romantic music idiom before turning to atonality later.

Aria Music sub-category


Can we add "Aria" to ChoralWiki:Music Subcategories? It is already in use, but not listed there. And can we use overall category "Solo" to contain works of all the various solo categories? (ie/ Lieder, Art song, etc, etc ...) As you know searching for the string "1v" would list all the solo works, but searches for strings of 3 characters or less don't work in Wikiland, so using a category to help this makes sense.

While we are at it, why does everything belong to "Category: Sheet music" ?


Last things first. Not everything belongs to Sheet music - only score/works pages with CPDL editions on them do. And for each edition with {{NewWork|2008-08-01}} appearing on it (note, it's today's date), that page will appear on ChoralWiki:2008-08-01 Scores by virtue of it being in both the "Sheet music" and "2008-08-01" categories. This is because the code that generates this listing is a DPL (Dynamic Page Listing) - take a look at the code if you're interested. Without the "Sheet music" and date categories, you would not see the scores listed under "Most recent scores" on the Main Page. The easiest way to think of "Sheet music" is that it is for pages that have complete edition information on them.

Now on to Solos. As presently understood, Solo is an obsolete subcategory of Solo vocal music, and works in that subcategory are supposed to be recategorized in an appropriate subcategory of "Solo vocal music", such as Solo medium, Solo Soprano, etc. If you want to do a search for all solos, you could search on the keyword "solo" (which, conveniently and unlike "1vv" or the correct "1v", is a word with more than three characters) - or even "solo baritone" if, say, you wanted to hunt for baritone solos (but simply going to Solo Baritone would be much easier and not yield so many extraneous hits.

Note that Solo vocal music lists only voicings for various kinds of "standalone" solo music (ie. without chorus), including duets, trios, etc. There is a separate but corresponding Choral solo music category for voicings of solos that do appear within a choral texture or choral movement.

Now, for Arias. As for "Christmas", there are two kinds - secular and sacred. And the current Arias category contains both types, which is unfortunate, since this appears as a subcategory of Secular music. Indeed, we should have two categories Secular arias and Sacred arias. Note, we do already have Sacred songs, but (aside from many of these being for chorus/choir with or without solos) I think that is analogous to Lieder vs. Art songs, or Anthems vs. Motets, or Hymns vs. Chorales. Do we make a change to two categories? ... I don't know. I will at least list "Arias" under Seculular music on ChoralWiki:Music Subcategories, since they already appear as a subcategory of "Secular music". I would suggest that we need to reach a decision soon (better than later) and recategorize arias appropriately if we go with the two flavors of aria categories.

I hope these explanations help and that people will add their thoughts.

Contact with Rafael Ornes


Rafael Ornes, founder and manager of CPDL since its inception has recently replied to an e-mail which I sent earlier today (cc also to Robert Nottingham, Carlos Augusto Mourão, and John Henry Fowler, all of us sysops/admins at CPDL). In addition, Raf and I had a very cordial and informative telephone conversation about an hour and a half ago, in which he told me that he had sent the e-mail reply to me and the above admins, as well as expanding upon some of the information in the e-mail.

The main thrust of his message is that he has been considering turning over all elements of CPDL for many months, having become too inundated by work and family obligations to manage CPDL properly. The backlog for him has grown to the point that he was been unable to do much more than reply to some direct support emails and do absolutely required backups and mainenance.

This has been a very trying realization for Raf to arrive at, and, after almost 10 years of managing CPDL, he feels a deep sorrow over having to let it go.

Raf is giving Carlos and me the necessary login/access information for the CPDL webserver. He commends the active group of admins for working together extremely well. He has offered to help us out and is glad not to have the great pressure overseeing such a large and vital endeavor as CPDL. In our conversation by phone, Raf suggested that we might consider forming some sort of managing committee to do the many things necessary to address current needs of CPDL, such as upgrading the MediaWiki software and extensions, as well as managing the MySQL database directly. I wish to consult with all admins (at least the active ones) as soon as possible, so that we might quickly come to agreement on how best to do all this. We will do everything possible to maintain CPDL, enhance it, and preserve the legacy that Rafael has given to choral musicians through CPDL.

I know many of you will be variously affected by this news. Personally, although I am relieved that we have some guidance and direction in which to proceed, it is with a deep sense of compassion, appreciation, and respect for my friend Raf that I am also saddened by his needing to step back. My best wishes and prayers are with him and his family.

  • Posted by: Choralia 16:02, 24 July 2008 (PDT)

I think these news are very positive for CPDL, even though it's sad that Raf needs to step back. You sysops/admins can count on me as an IT professional as well as to contribute to the budget that may be required to run the operations of CPDL.

As a sign of appreciation for everything Raf did for CPDL, I would propose to highlight his name in the home page, e.g. by adding a "Founder: Rafael Ornes" on the top of the page, or something like that.


  • Posted by: Vaarky 21:41, 26 July 2008 (PDT)

Great idea! I've found myself mentioning CPDL and the Internet alongside penicillin when commenting that it's a great time to be alive. Although it's unfortunate that Rafael doesn't have time to remain actively involved, having some definiteness around his role may help pave the way for other admins to move projects along that were on hold.

Worth updating ChoralWiki:Contact_CPDL with updated phone or e-mail contact info. I flagged it for Cleanup but I'm not sure if someone reads each one or if it waits for volunteers to go through it when they have time--apologies if ths is redundant.

Proposal to eliminate file sizes from works pages


Putting in the file size of PDF, MIDI and Source files represents a lot of additional time and bother. Only when the file size is over 100 meg is it really helpful to the user. Bob has suggested that we omit this information, and has started removing the "200 Kb." estimates on my recent postings, which means I can't search and replace this information in the future. I therefore will be omitting file sizes in future postings. This will make Bobs editing job easier, and eliminate the need to update the estimates to real file sizes in the future.

  • Posted by: —Carlos mail_icon.gif 15:26, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

In general I agree with you, John, file size is no longer a very useful information nowadays when everybody has broadband. I think that leaving just page format (A4/Letter) and number of pages will suffice. donations address still valid?

  • Posted by: Vaarky 17:58, 22 July 2008 (PDT)

I mailed a check in April. The post office returned it to me with a yellow label over it saying "Return to Sender, not deliverable as addressed, unable to forward."

The address matches. Has the address changed? Should I resend?


Hi Vaarky. Thank you very much for your generosity and desire to donate to CPDL. Unfortunately, Raf Ornes is currently not involved in the project except when he is absolutely required to be (eg. the crash last year). If you want to get in touch, I suggest you email him, but don't hold out for a reply as he seems to have no time even to reply to emails these days. I have commented out the address on the ChoralWiki:Site support page for the moment, until Raf updates us with a new address. Again, thanks for your donation and I'm sorry that we can't accept it at this time.


Does this problem above signal the end of CPDL as we know it some time in the future ? Is anyone else concerned? It seems we are busy with arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Can't we fix the Bulletin Board system, the "Add Score" script, update the Wiki software, and now we can't accept contributions ? Our work on CPDL is just a crashed disk away from total destruction if no one is steering the ship...

  • Posted by: Choralia 05:47, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

I had the same experience, with my check returned, and I'm very worried about the future of CPDL. An action is in progress by a couple of CPDL administrators to get in touch with Raf. If this attempt does not succeed, I think we should contact the administrator of the server farm where CPDL is hosted, and ascertain that back-ups are regularly made, and somebody can restore them in the case of need. My phpBB3 back-up bulletin board is always available for whoever wants to use it, and it may act as a contact point for our admins should CPDL collapse (that will make this wiki version collapse as well.

  • Posted by: ?Carlos mail_icon.gif 15:01, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

As Choralia said, an attempt was made to contact Raf Ornes 9 days ago, during the spambot attacks (more about it below, under "Administrative remedies ... "). We emailed Raf through 3 different email accounts (CPDL's, personal Gmail and even his Church email) and still no reply. He seems to have shifted his priorities towards other projects lately, and I'm trying to figure out what exactly this will mean for the future of CPDL.

  • Posted by: Vaarky 15:33, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

I did e-mail Rafael back then but got no reply.

FWIW, I think the biggest priority (in addition to reaching him) would be to take a snapshot of CPDL and, ideally, the external score pages that are linked by it too (and then set up periodic updates to the back-ups to stay current).

My husband (I can provide further details in e-mail) is willing to take this on if the admins can provide:
1. consent (required);
2. a sense of the total size (ideally) and what rate of download would avoid causing problems;
3. guidance where possible to avoid reinventing the wheel (he's used MediaWiki but not administered it on a server);
4. a login on the server if that improves things.

Additionally, I'm willing to put up funds to underwrite a different hosting solution if needed (up to the low 4-digits $US per year for at least 5 years) if I can't talk an ISP I know into sponsoring hosting it on their site (they've sponsored projects I've been involved with in the past--I can provide details via e-mail about the ISP as well.

Please drop me a note if you'd like to discuss my husband's info/credentials or the ISP. I just don't want those aspects Googleable if I can avoid it.

Request for extension to Template:Editor


I've just been updating O magnum mysterium (Tomás Luis de Victoria) with the names of the editors from Mutopia (see who have edited this work. Unfortunately, the Editor template cannot take more than one editor in its current state. Would it be possible for someone to extend it in the same manner as Template:Language? I would but it takes me a while to get my head round template code and I know other people are better at it :-)


It's done, Rob! Check the new syntaxes on the template page: Template:Editor. I already applied it to O magnum mysterium as a test.


Thanks a lot, Carlos. That's a great help.

LilyPond icons


I came across this page whilst doing some spam reverting and noticed a few LilyPond icons (Icon_ly.gif) in place of the usual text "LilyPond". What do people think about adopting this icon universally and adding it to the Legend? I've just created Template:extly which outputs an icon with the globe (Icon_ly_ext.png) for LilyPond files hosted externally. I figure, the more icons and less text on score and composer pages, the better.


Hi Rob, I never thought about this before, might be a good idea. The icons for the PDF and MIDI files are quite obvious and universally recognized. I just wonder if people visiting score pages won't be a bit confused at first with icons they don't know yet (I suppose we'd adopt icons for the other sources too, as Sibelius, Encore etc.?), but as soon as they look at the Legend everything would be clear. The ideal would be if we could make the tooltip (that appears when we drag the mouse over the icons) show the program name instead of the link that it shows now.

Archived topics

Topics included in an archive are listed below the archive name. Click on the archive name to find the archived postings.

Archive 3

  • Administrative remedies to mitigate current (July 08) spam storm?
  • Category:New works added to Template:NewWorks
  • Testing a new set of Link templates
  • Lyricist template
  • Semi-automation now available
  • 'New template - copyright warning
  • How should we handle entries for composite works, where two separate "works" are in the same file
  • How should we handle entries for the second editor
Moved to ChoralWiki:CPDL support, help, and feedback#How should we handle entries for the second editor

Archive 2

  • Nomination for adminship
  • Moving to the new BBS system
  • Add brass to accompaniment cat?
  • New template for formatting of credits in Translations section
  • Uniform sort keys for categorization templates on sheet music pages
  • New add works form

Archive 1

  • Discontinuation of Village pump
  • Making text-translations pages into categories
  • List of current CPDL problems
Moved here from CPDL support, help, and feedback
  • Should we consider setting up a mirror site?
Moved here from CPDL support, help, and feedback