Difference between revisions of "ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues"

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''[[CW:OI]] redirects here.''
 
''[[CW:OI]] redirects here.''
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<div><div style="margin: 0; margin-right: 30px; margin-left: 30px; border: 1px solid #a3bfb1; padding: 1em 1em 1em 1em; background-color:#cef2e0">
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<center>
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<big>'''External Bulletin Board Upgraded'''</big>
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</center>
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As the first action of the CPDL Transition Committee, the external Bulletin Board (aka "forums") has been upgraded and is now located at [{{MediaWiki:Discussions-url}} {{#sub:{{MediaWiki:Discussions-url}}|7}}]. The upgrade should prevent the majority of spammers and solve posting problems. You can use your old login on the upgraded BB. The [[ChoralWiki:Bulletin board|Bulletin board]] here at ChoralWiki will be active at least for the time being, so feel free to use either.
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</div>
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= Documentation =
 
= Documentation =
 
{{ForumHeader|Operation and implementation issues}}
 
{{ForumHeader|Operation and implementation issues}}
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= Announcements and special topics (most recent first) =
 
= Announcements and special topics (most recent first) =
 
<!-- This section is for SPECIAL TOPICS (Announcements and "Sticky topics" started by Admins/Sysops -->
 
<!-- This section is for SPECIAL TOPICS (Announcements and "Sticky topics" started by Admins/Sysops -->
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== CPDL transition ==
 +
{{ItemPost|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 04:03, 25 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
Rafael Ornes, founder and manager of CPDL, is stepping back from an active role with CPDL.  Initially, Raf has turned the operational responsibilities to
 +
[[User:bobnotts|bobnotts]], [[User:Carlos|Carlos]], [[User:CHGiffen|CHGiffen]], and [[User:johnhenryfowler|johnhenryfowler]].  Since then, we have enlisted a group of volunteers who have been active on CPDL to serve with us as a CPDL transition committee charged with working out a transition plan. This will cover back-ups and other key areas of operation, setting up a working mechanism for donations (multiple people mailed donation checks and had them returned), etc.
 +
 +
In addition to the above-mentioned users, the following users have agreed to serve on the Transtion committee:  [[User:Choralia|choralia]], [[User:Arie Fokkens|Arie Fokkens]], and [[User:vaarky|vaarky]].  These enlistees have already contributed greatly to our understanding of what we need to do and how we should go about doing it.
 +
 +
Of course, Rafael Ornes serves ''ex officio'' on the committee and will be of enormous help in working out the many details of operation and maintenance which he has managed single-handedly for so long. 
 +
 +
If you have any questions or comments, or if you would like to offer assistance, please feel free to post here or contact one of us.
 +
}}
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{{ItemPost|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 01:34, 6 September 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
As many of you may have already noticed from the [[Main Page]], the old "forums" (external bulletin board) is back up and running.  It is accessible at [{{MediaWiki:Discussions-url}} {{#sub:{{MediaWiki:Discussions-url}}|7}}].  Members of the Transition committee should be advised that there is a (hidden) transition committee forum there which they will see when they login at the phpBB3.
 +
}}
  
 
== Use of this forum ==
 
== Use of this forum ==
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 04:16, 12 April 2008 (PDT)|
+
{{ItemPost|{{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 04:16, 12 April 2008 (PDT)|
 
This forum is for more techincal discussions of ChoralWiki implementation and operation at CPDL, primarily of interest to admins and others doing editing of pages at CPDL.  Some topics of a more technical nature or involving CPDL policy from [[ChoralWiki:CPDL support, help, and feedback|CPDL support, help, and feedback]] will be moved here.
 
This forum is for more techincal discussions of ChoralWiki implementation and operation at CPDL, primarily of interest to admins and others doing editing of pages at CPDL.  Some topics of a more technical nature or involving CPDL policy from [[ChoralWiki:CPDL support, help, and feedback|CPDL support, help, and feedback]] will be moved here.
 
}}
 
}}
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<!-- Start NEW TOPICS immediately below this line, ABOVE (BEFORE) any other topics -->
 
<!-- Start NEW TOPICS immediately below this line, ABOVE (BEFORE) any other topics -->
  
==Nomination for adminship==
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== New administrator ==
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 06:58, 18 May 2008 (PDT)|
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{{ItemPost|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>''''''</sub>]] 20:41, 7 September 2008 (PDT)|text=
I'd like to formally nominate [[User:Carlos|Carlos]] for adminship. Carlos has put a lot of work into CPDL over the past 4-5 months including welcoming newcomers, providing texts and translations, correcting mistakes and doing some admin related tasks including merging and moving pages. He has shown a clear undertanding of the wiki framework of the site, he has good musical knowledge and a couple of languages other than English up his sleeve. He has also adapted to the weird and wonderful (and mostly undocumented) practices here. I believe he has earned the community's trust and should be made an admin (sysop) for these reasons. Please state your opinions below and we will come to a consensus on whether or not to make Carlos an admin in due course.}}
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We are happy to announce that [[User:Vaarky]] has been made a [[ChoralWiki:Administrators|sysop (administrator)]] at CPDL who, at a crucial time for CPDL, has stepped up and made siginificant contributions both in terms of editing pages, organization at CPDL, and as a member of the Transition committee. We are very grateful for Vaarky's help and accepting a greater role here. Congratulations and welcome!
 
+
}}
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 11:43, 18 May 2008 (PDT)|Wow, thank you guys, this nomination is quite an honor for me! Whatever be the community's decision, I'll continue to gladly contribute to this wonderful site!}}
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{{ItemPost|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 06:12, 8 September 2008 (PDT)|text=
 
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Congratulations, Vaarky! Be very welcome to the administrative Board, and keep up the good work!
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 00:41, 19 May 2008 (PDT)|
+
}}
Rob already knows my feelings are definitely and strongly in favor of Carlos/Carlos becoming an admin here at CPDL.  I had raised the matter with Rob in an earlier exchange of emails, and since then Carlos has continued his excellent service and more than earned our trust that he will prove to be a capable sysop.  I would hope that we can reach a consensus before the end of this month.
+
{{Reply|by=[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 15:49, 8 September 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
Thanks! I've gotten so much out of CPDL--it's nice to be able to help out.
 
}}
 
}}
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:johnhenryfowler|John Henry Fowler]][[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 03:46, 19 May 2008 (PDT)|I vote to elect Carlos to position of Admin/SysOp for CPDL.  Welcome Carlos ! }}
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==Proposal of a template for files externally hosted==
 
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{{ItemPost|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 01:50, 30 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
==Moving to the new BBS system==
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Hi everyone! Composer and contributor [[Adrian Cuello]] has just informed that his old website (http://www.audio.ya.com/adriancuello) is no longer available and all his externally hosted files (pdf's and midi's) will have to be redirected to a new site (http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es)This situation is quite common for contributors who host their editions in free servers and have to move elsewhere from time to time. My suggestion is that for these cases, editors used a template like this: <tt><nowiki>{{website|Adrian_Cuello}}</nowiki></tt>. Their links would look like
{{ItemPost|[[User:johnhenryfowler|John Henry Fowler]] <small>[[User talk:johnhenryfowler|'''talk''']]</small> [[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 04:37, 16 May 2008 (PDT)|
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::<tt><nowiki>{{website|Adrian_Cuello}}Sonidos/aicamaraga.MID</nowiki></tt>
We have a workable BBS system at
+
instead of
 
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::<tt><nowiki>http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/Sonidos/aicamaraga.MID</nowiki></tt>
    http://choralia.altervista.org/phpbb/index.php
+
Whenever the editor had to move to another server, we'd make just one single change to [[Template:website]] instead of changing all pages he contributed. What do you all think?
 
 
Which I think we should transition toThe current system does not encourage new users, and even though we "Techies" can
 
make use of it I don't think it is a good permanant solution.  Certainly the current pink announcement box could send users
 
to the above resource.  Currently to find "new posts" I have to find edits in the "Recent Changes" list, and go to the modified page. With the very slow load times we are now experienceing this  process takes a lot of time, and I find I "read" new posts much less frequently than I used to.  Consequently I don't help new users much because to the inadaquacy of the current system.  What do other CPDL users and admins think ? }}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 10:16, 16 May 2008 (PDT)|I agree with you, John; in fact this forum is not very much newbie-friendly, and as it shares the same platform with CPDL, in case of a server failure we'd lose contact with each other. But would we have to create a new account to access this new BBS?}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:johnhenryfowler|John Henry Fowler]] <small>[[User talk:johnhenryfowler|'''talk''']]</small> [[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] [[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 10:25, 16 May 2008 (PDT)|You sign up just the way to signed up to use the "forum" BBS.  It's also much faster than trying to read messages here, and you can tell which posts are new and unread.  It makes sense to use it ASAP. }}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|--[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 17:06, 16 May 2008 (PDT)|I agree, of course. I just wonder if someone has admin access rights onto the "traditional" phpBB2 forum, so that he can possibly add a link or even re-direct the phpBB2 forum to the new phpBB3 forum. I think this would facilitate the migration of the users.}}
 
 
 
==Add brass to accompaniment cat?==
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 22:10, 12 May 2008 (PDT)|I've just come across this score [[Psalm 100 - Jauchzet dem Herrn (Johann Pachelbel)]] and I wondered if we should add "Brass ensemble" to the [[accompaniment]] list & add appropriate templates etc?}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 02:09, 19 May 2008 (PDT)|
 
Good idea!  I just created and added {{CiteCat|Brass accompaniment}} to {{CiteCat|Accompaniment}} and made the template <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:BrassAcc|BrassAcc]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> (with optional sortkey parameter 9) to facilitate listing and adding the new category to the Instruments fields of relevant works.  The default form in which this template appears is "Brass ensemble".  Sorry it took so long, but I have been inundated of late.
 
 
}}
 
}}
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 06:41, 19 May 2008 (PDT)|
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{{Reply|by=[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 09:27, 30 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
Thanks, Chuck. I've updated the page in question.}}
+
Good idea. Does the directory structure usually stay the same between the old site and new one?
 
 
== New template for formatting of credits in Translations section ==
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 14:42, 12 May 2008 (PDT)|I was trying to find a simple way to format the credits line in the translations section and came up with this little template [[:Template:By|'''By''']]. I used it as a test in [[Ay mi Dios (Pedro de Cristo)]], please have a look inside and say if you like the results. A few examples on how to use it can be found on the [[:Template:By|template's page]]. I bring it now to public appreciation for opinions whether to use it or not. Thanks
 
}}
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 00:45, 13 May 2008 (PDT)|
 
I think this is a good idea but I think it would be better if it were integrated into [[Template:Translation]] and we had "user" as the default option, not the exception. Also, I think it's worth discussing 2 broader issues to do with translations on CPDL:
 
#Should translators be credited? Anybody can come in and make major edits to them - how far are they still the work of one person? Wikis are about collaboration, so indicating ownership of work is something of a backwards step. The exception to this is, of course, the main aim of this site - editions. Editors are listed for them, I hear you cry. Well - I think this is an exception because the files cannot be edited by anyone at all, just the editor.
 
#Should pages with translations be categorised as having them? At the moment, the category [[:Category:Texts-translations]] only accounts for texts added...
 
What does everyone think?
 
 
}}
 
}}
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 04:20, 13 May 2008 (PDT)|Hi Rob, your suggestion of integrating it with the Translation template is nice indeed. As for having "User" as the default, that was my initial idea, but I decided to invert its logic because I thought that perhaps ''text'' comments would be more common than usernames. Now the broader issues:
 
  
1. I have thought about this a few times, without coming to a conclusion. I even started removing my credits from a few pages, but then turned back. I think the main reason for having the credits is for us to be able to contact the translators and discuss with them any detail of their translation. On the other side, I've also made minor changes to other's translations (usually in punctuation, but sometimes even changing a word for another I consider to better represent the meaning) without contacting them, and wouldn't mind having my own translations being modified by others (if for better! :).
+
{{Reply|color=g|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 10:01, 30 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 
+
That would have to be a task for the website owner. But I believe most webservers allow their users to create custom subdirectory structures when necessary.
 
 
2. That's another point I was going to discuss with Chuck in near future; I too noticed that the translations weren't being listed on [[:Category:Texts-translations]], and was going to propose him the creation of [[:Category:Translations (by language)]] just as there is for [[:Category:Texts (by language)]]. I definitely think translations should have their own category.
 
 
}}
 
}}
  
== Uniform sort keys for categorization templates on sheet music pages ==
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{{reply|level=1|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 22:22, 30 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
I think this is an excellent idea, Carlos.  And I think, in many cases at least, when a website is moved the directory substructure is indeed maintained.
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 00:40, 3 May 2008 (PDT)|I've begun converting (typically optional) sort key parameters for categorization templates on sheet music pages to a uniform parameter 9.  Previously, such sort key parameters had various numbers (usually 2, 3 or 4).  I reckon that it is much easier to remember just ''one'' choice that works for all such templates than to have to remember all the variations (or check the template code/documentation itself).
+
One way to track the change (in case some hands-on maintenance is required) would be to have the template categorize pages on which it appears with a Category:Externally hosted, sortkey the same as the parameter passed to Template:Website (or Template:Exthost or Template:Webhost, either of which is a little less ambiguous sounding to me).
 
}}
 
}}
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 04:11, 3 May 2008 (PDT)|Excellent initiative, Chuck! I saw how confusing adding sort keys can be when I was editing [[¿Qué pasa ó redor de min? (Adrian Cuello)]]: for ''Composer'', ''Pcat'' and ''Text'' templates it was the 3rd parameter; for ''Lang'' and ''Language'', the 9th; for ''Acap'' the 2nd and so on. :) Having just one parameter number to remember will tremendously simplify things. Thanks!
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{{reply|color=g|level=1|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 04:16, 31 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
Hey Chuck, I liked the names you suggested, Webhost or Exthost give indeed a better idea of what the template would do; which one do you prefer? The new category would also be very handy (it's a pity we can't make it "invisible", though). Should we also categorize these pages to [[:Category:External links]]?
 
}}
 
}}
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 05:42, 3 May 2008 (PDT)|
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{{reply|level=2|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 00:33, 1 September 2008 (PDT)|text=
Glad you like it.  I'll get to all the other templates that go on sheet music pages as soon as I can. Fortunately, it is not difficult to identify those relatively few instances where the old sort key was used and change them manually.
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Hi Carlos.  I've made a first try at [[Template:Website]] and it works in principle, although, in [[Adrian Cuello]]'s case tne new site rejects deep-linking directly to the PDFs and MIDIs.
}}
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For example, the link
 +
<pre>
 +
http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/partituras/aicamaraga.pdf
 +
</pre>
 +
sends you to the page
 +
<pre>
 +
http://www.fortunecity.com/referercheck/denial.jpg
 +
</pre>
 +
But ... there is no problem with getting to http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/composiciones.htm which lists his compositions with links to PDFs (as above) and MIDIs that work when clicked this page.
  
==New add works form==
+
This shows that, even though the directory structure is maintained in the website change, one might still encounter problems such as the current one which does not support deep-linking for PDFs and MIDIs.
<small>''Some comments moved here from [[User talk:Bobnotts#Add New Works form]]''</small>
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Arie|Arie]] 02:10, 1 May 2008 (PDT)|Hi Robert,
 
  
I'm still working working on the form and the results, and I'm a bit puzzled how to 'render' part of larger work. Should it come directly under the title? e.g.
+
Hence, at best (for Adrian Cuello) we shall have to replace the separate extpdf and extmid links with a single net link of the form
 +
<pre>
 +
[{{website|Adrian Cuello}} {{net}}]
 +
</pre>
 +
: [{{website|Adrian Cuello}} {{net}}]
  
'''Title''': ''Just a title, Op. 65, No. 7''
+
This was accomplished by setting
 +
<pre>
 +
|case Adrian Cuello=http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/composiciones.htm
 +
</pre>
 +
in [[Template:Website]].  I had previously accessed the same page by setting
 +
<pre>
 +
|case Adrian Cuello=http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/
 +
</pre>
 +
and typing <tt><nowiki>[{{website|Adrian Cuello}}composiciones.htm {{net}}]</nowiki></tt>, but incorporating compositiones.htm into the website case shortens what one has to type elsewhere.
  
'''Part of''': ''Larger work, Op. 65''
+
I've not added categorizing the pages in Category:Exthost or Category:External links yet.
 +
}}
  
 +
{{reply|color=g|level=2|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 07:31, 2 September 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
Hi Chuck, thanks for giving the initial steps and creating the template. I had been able to deep-link to Adrian's files, but I guess it was because I had opened his page first and had already the necessary cookies set. When I tried again later, I had the same problem as you. Your idea to include the whole web address in the template is perfect. I'll write Adrian to let him know that a solution is under way.
 +
}}
  
Also I don't know what to do with the second composer entry, you requested. Yours, Arie}}
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==Changes to the Requests: namespace==
 +
{{ItemPost|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 17:17, 29 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
After a lot of research, I finally was able to find out why '''Requests:''' pages didn't accept talk pages (clicking on the "talk" link would erroneously create a score page instead): a relatively simple 1-line variable setting was missing from ''LocalSettings.php'' and is now included. Now all Request talk pages can be created and edited normally, and searched via the combo box namespaces list.
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Arie|Arie]] 06:11, 1 May 2008 (PDT)|I also noticed that the template <nowiki>{{Acap}}</nowiki> renders as:
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And since I was at it, I also renamed the "Requests:" namespace to the singular form "Request:", to comply with the standard followed by all other namespaces. Just by renaming it, all pages in this namespace were automatically renamed too. So now instead of [[Requests:Vago augelletto (Claudio Monteverdi)]], we have [[Request:Vago augelletto (Claudio Monteverdi)]]. This renaming can be easily undone, in case the other admins disagree. The changes made to ''LocalSettings.php'' were:
  
'''Instruments''': [[:Category:A cappella|a cappella]]
+
(before)
  
whereas e.g. <nowiki>{{OrgAcc}}</nowiki> just gives the category.
+
$wgExtraNamespaces =
IMHO all the templates concerning instrumentation should render the same way, in order to maintain the PHP-script easier.}}
+
        array ( 100 => "Requests",
 +
              );
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 01:12, 2 May 2008 (PDT)|Hi Arie. Thanks for all the work you've done so far. I agree that the "a cappella" template should operate in the same way as the other instrument templates. However, as both <tt><nowiki>{{Acap}}</nowiki></tt> and <tt><nowiki>{{A cappella}}</nowiki></tt> are used on over 500 pages, we don't want to change either template. I propose to create a new template for the purpose, "acappella", which the add works form would use. The new template would be the same as the existing "acap" template except that it wouldn't include "'''Instruments''':" as you suggest.
+
(after)
  
As for the second composer entry, I'm sorry for not making myself clear. Some works listed on CPDL have more than one composer (albiet a very small number, eg. [[Two Anglican Chants for Psalm 65 (Thomas Attwood Walmisley and W. A. C. Cruickshank)]]). In the case of a submitted work having more than one composer, we would need to have a separate (optional) field on the add works form. The output would be <tt><nowiki>{{Composer|2|Thomas Attwood Walmisley|W. A. C. Cruickshank}}</nowiki></tt>
+
$wgExtraNamespaces =
 +
        array ( 100 => "Request",
 +
                101 => "Request_talk" );
 +
}}
  
As for movements of a larger work, see [[Ye People, Rend Your Hearts (No. 3 from 'Elijah') (Felix Mendelssohn)]] which I believe is a good example of the appropriate output. I hope this helps!}}
+
==Classification of solo works as Bass, Baritone, Tenor, Countertenor, Alto, Soprano solos==
 +
{{ItemPost|by=[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 00:39, 4 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
Using the low note/high note specification for an edition I need to know what makes a work have a particular voicepart's solo designation.  Need the same definitions for LOW, MEDIUM,and HIGH Voice. ie. Range: B3 - E♭5 Does this make it Tenor solo ?  Bass solo ? <br>
 +
Postscript: I found this Wikipedia article on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_range vocal range] which has proposed ranges, and some obvious mistakes which I have fixed: <br>
 +
::
 +
::Basic Choral Ranges:
 +
::---------------------
 +
::Soprano C4 - A5
 +
::Mezzo-Soprano: G3 - F5
 +
::Alto: E3 - E5
 +
::Counter-Tenor: G3 - F5
 +
::Tenor: D3 - A4
 +
::Baritone: G2 - G4
 +
::Bass: E2 - E4
 +
::---------------------
 +
Perhaps a diagram like this might help:
 +
-----
 +
<pre>
 +
g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g
 +
1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 6
 +
          |          |    |    |  |    |      |    |
 +
    Bass |-----------|-----|-----|---|    |      |    |
 +
                      |    |    |        |      |    |
 +
                Tenor |-----|-----|---------|      |    |
 +
                            |    |                |    |
 +
                      Alto |-----|-----------------|    |
 +
                                  |                      |
 +
                          Soprano|-----------------------|
 +
</pre>
 +
[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 01:08, 5 August 2008 (PDT)
 +
  {{Reply|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 08:05, 5 August 2008 (PDT)|color=y|text=
 +
I have slightly shrunk the range that John originally displayed (which went 6 octaves), from C1 to C7.  And, because the Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass range indicators did not appear in his original, I made a few edits to make them appear.  The original ranges that John gives have been preserved.
 +
  }}
 +
}}
 +
{{ItemPost|—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 02:56, 5 August 2008 (PDT)|
 +
John, there's something wrong with these ranges: Mezzo's high note A6 is higher than Soprano's C6! The same happens with Baritone's lower note A3, which is higher than Tenor's C3. Perhaps you made this confusion by thinking that the scale begins in A, when in fact it begins in C (...F0,A0,B0,C1,D1,E1,F1,G1,A1,B1,C2... etc.)
 +
}}
 +
{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 04:07, 5 August 2008 (PDT)|Carlos, I did make that mistake.  I've fixed it.  What would you suggest for the ranges of Mezzo, Counter-Tenor, Baritone ?  Does the above look correct now ?
 +
}}
 +
{{Reply|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 14:07, 5 August 2008 (PDT)|color=y|level=1|text=
 +
Hi John, I am a tenor, so I can speak of my voice type: The tenors that I know which have the most limited range can still sing with no effort between C3 and G4. Those with wider range can sing as low as A2 and as high as A4 (my own range is G#2 to A4). Sorry for not being able to help with the other voices, I could ask my conductor later, she'll know it for sure.
 +
}}
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Arie|Arie]] 03:13, 2 May 2008 (PDT)|Hi Robert. Thanks for the reply. It seems that I partially solved my own problem. As for the <tt><nowiki>{{Acap}}</nowiki></tt> template, I had to check the choice of accompaniment anyway, so you can leave it as is.
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{{ItemPost|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 08:05, 5 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
The vocal ranges given above are to be construed as '''choral''' ranges, '''not solo''' ranges. There is another important Wikipedia article on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_type voice type] which is more thorough and includes a discussion of solo vocal ranges.
  
Second composer is clear, shouldn't give too much of a problem to implement that.
+
In solo singing, one must take into account not just vocal range, but also '''tessitura''', '''vocal weight''', and '''timbre''' - and these combine to determine the '''voice types''' for solo voices.  A singer's ''tessitura'' is where the voice has the best ''timbre'' (vocal quality or "color"), easy volume, and most comfort.  For example, a soprano and a mezzo-soprano may have almost identical vocal ranges, but have tessituras that lie in different parts of the range (the soprano having the higher tessitura).
  
Another thing though is the implementation of the larger work. Key is that it must be filled in exactly, otherwise the link back will not work. I will think about this overnight.
+
Here are typical vocal ranges (and typical extremes for soloists):
  
Can you (or any of the other admins) access the original PHP-script? This would be helpful in order to figure out how the CPDL-number is issued. Thanks in advance.
+
* Soprano:  (A3 or B3) C4 &mdash; A5 (C6 or D6; some coloraturas to F6, G6 or even A6)
 +
* Mezzo-soprano: (G3) A3 &mdash; G5 or A5 (B6 or C6)
 +
* Contralto (alto is really the wrong term for soloists): (E3 or F3) G3 &mdash: G5 (A5 or even B-flat5)
  
Current state of the form is at [http://62.234.158.69/~arie//wiki/index.php/Add_a_new_work Add a new work]. Feel free to try it and comment on it or if you have any wishes, please let me know.}}
+
* Countertenor: (G3) A3 &mdash; E5 (F5 or even higher for a ''Sopranist'')
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 08:15, 2 May 2008 (PDT)|
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* Tenor: (A2 or B2) C3 &mdash; C5 or D5 (E5 or F5)
Thanks for this, Arie. As I see it, the form shouldn't automatically add a CPDL no. - this would be added by the admin who reviews the works page and then removes <tt><nowiki>{{AwaitingReview}}</nowiki></tt>. So there is no need to get the old form - could we have "nnnnn" in place of where the number should be?
+
* Baritone: (F2 or G2) A2 &mdash; F4 (G4 or A4)
 +
* Bass: (C2 or D2) E2 or F2 &mdash; C4 or E4 (F4)
 +
: note that Basso profundo and Russian bass ranges may be even lower, as far down as B-flat1 or A1)
  
There's quite a few things I've picked up on - I hope it's not too much work for you!
+
These are by no means authoritative, and indeed, both the ''New Harvard Dictionary of Music'' and the ''Grove Music Online'' ranges vary somewhat from my list above and the list John gives.  John's and these last two ranges are probably intended to define typical ''choral vocal ranges''.
  
*Add 2 radio buttons next to "Lyricist or source of text". The choices would be "Lyricist" (ie. an individual who wrote the words) or "Source of text" (a part of the bible, for example). The output code would reflect the choice of radio buttons. If "Lyricist" was chosen, we should have <tt><nowiki>{{Lyricist|Charles Wesley}}</nowiki></tt> (for example). If "Source of text" was chosen, we should have <tt><nowiki>'''Source of text:''' John 14: 15-17</nowiki></tt>
+
For High, Medium, and Low voicings (ordinarily not gender specific, the female range being an octave above the male range), '''typical''' ranges might be:
  
*<s>Could you add these languages to the drop down list:
+
* High female (male): B3 or C4 &mdash; G5 or A5 (B2 or C3 &mdash; G4 or A4)
**Basque
+
* Medium female (male): G3 or A3 &mdash; E5 or F5 (G2 or A2 &mdash; E4 or F4)
**Catalan
+
* Low female (male): E3 or F3 &mdash; C5 or D5 (E2 or F2 &mdash; C4 or D4)
**Czech
 
**Finnish
 
**Greek
 
**Ancient Greek
 
**Hungarian
 
**Huron
 
**Icelandic
 
**Lowland Scots
 
**Middle English
 
**Nahuatl
 
**Old English
 
**Quenya
 
**Serbian
 
**Slovenian
 
**Ukrainian
 
**Zulu</s>
 
*If the user doesn't select an option from a compulsory drop down list, currently a dash "-" is outputted. Can we change that to <tt><nowiki>{{Language|Unknown}}</nowiki></tt> or <tt><nowiki>{{Cat|Unknown genre|Unknown genre}}</nowiki></tt> or whatever?
 
*Can we add an optional box for the text of the work (which would have a line break, <tt><nowiki><br></nowiki></tt> added to the end of each line)?
 
*<s>Remove "Ancient" from period list</s>
 
*Add "Other" to instruments list.
 
*<s>Separate keyboard reduction & keyboard version into 2 separate tick boxes (elaborate on descriptions for tick boxes - "Includes a keyboard reduction of the choral parts" & "Includes a keyboard version of a non-keyboard accompaniment". The former will add <tt><nowiki>{{KbdRed}}</nowiki></tt> and the latter would add <tt><nowiki>{{KbdVer}}</nowiki></tt></s>
 
*Year of first publication should not be a required field (nor should it add a template - one does not exist)
 
*<s>Cannot type in ensemble specification box.</s>
 
*<s>In Music Notation software list:
 
**Capitalise "p" in "LilyPond"
 
**Remove "-" from "Finale 1998", "Finale 1999" etc.
 
**Correct capitalisation of "Encore"</s>
 
*Remove "(give URL, or name or file)" from line "Music notation file"
 
*<s>Replace the existing list of copyright choices with the following:
 
**CPDL
 
**Creative Commons
 
**Free Art License
 
**GnuGPL
 
**MutopiaBSD
 
**Personal
 
**Public Domain
 
**Religious</s>
 
*We need the existing free text box so users can specify the type of Creative Commons license they are using (if applicable).
 
  
When I got the outputted code, there were the following problems:
+
Indeed these are good norms for choral vocal ranges, as well, corresponding to traditional Soprano (Tenor), Mezzo (Baritone), Alto (Bass) voices. Excursions outside these ranges call for special singers and/or special circumstances (such as large chorus in the case of choral ranges).  Furthermore, composers often choose vocal ranges that suit the voices they have at hand (or ranges that they are fond of). For example, I have written more than my share of choral bass parts that extend down to D2 or up to E4, choral soprano parts that extend down to A3. Or, Haydn's Thereseinmesse has choral bass parts that extend from D2 up to F4!  It seems that even in classical times, there was little limit to using extreme vocal ranges, even for choral music.
*<s>There shouldn't be a gap between <nowiki>"==Music files==" and "{{Legend}}"</nowiki></s>
 
*The MP3 link was missing
 
*There should not be a period (full stop) after the final file link
 
*Can we use [[Template:ScoreInfo]]? If we do, we won't need any forced spaces ({{etc|nbsp;}}) on that line.
 
*The additional copyright notes were missing
 
*<s>The lyricist line was above the composer line (the composer line should come directly below the title)</s>
 
*If the link is to a web page rather than directly to a file, the icon should be {{net}}, <tt><nowiki>{{net}}</nowiki></tt> not <tt><nowiki>{{extpdf}}</nowiki></tt> or <tt><nowiki>{{extmid}}</nowiki></tt> (see [[If ye love me (Thomas Tallis)|this page]] for comparisons).
 
*In the works output, all the info below the "year published field" was missing. We need "description" and "external links" below that, then the title "Original text and translations" with "<tt><nowiki>{{NoText}}</nowiki></tt>" if the text has not been added in the box above but "<tt><nowiki>{{Text|Whatever}}</nowiki></tt>" if the text has been added in the form. Also, any categories not added by the templates should be added at the bottom of the form.
 
  
That probably seems like a very long list! Sorry for that but it's best to get it right first time. Thanks again. Rob}}
+
The period of solo vocal music also probably is important.  For example, here are the bass solos from [[Messiah, HWV 56 (George Frideric Handel)|Messiah]] and their ranges:
 +
* Thus saith the Lord: C3 &mdash; D4
 +
* But who may abide (16A): A2 &mdash; F4
 +
* For behold, darkness shall cover the earth: A2 &mdash; D4
 +
* The people that walked in darkness: F-sharp2 &mdash; E4
 +
* Thou art gone up on high: C3 &mdash; E4
 +
* Why do the nations: B2 &mdash; E4
 +
* Behold, I tell you a mystery: A2 &mdash; D4
 +
* The trumpet shall sound:  A2 &mdash; E4
 +
With the exception of ''The people...'' the ambitus (range), collectively, is:  A2 &mdash; E4.  This is well within the solo baritone range and (except for ''The people...'') even in the (low extended) tenor solo range. It is largely because of tessitura that these are considered bass solos by most people (even though they are often sung by baritones or bass-baritones).
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Arie|Arie]] 17:37, 2 May 2008 (PDT)|Hi Robert. Thanks for the elaborate input. As you say, it's better to get thing right the first time.
+
As for John's example with ambitus B3 &mdash; E-flat5 is, on vocal range alone, probably best classified as baritone solo, although many tenors and basses could also sing it.  The real question, though, is a matter of tessitura, vocal weight, and timbre required of the solo - and for these one must consult the score directly, carefully.
 +
}}
 +
{{ItemPost
 +
|by=[[User:Ebykm|Ebykm]] 18:03, 5 August 2008 (PDT)
 +
|text=
 +
Excellent one Chuck, do you think we should put vocal range indicators in new scores?.
 +
}}
 +
{{ItemPost
 +
|by=[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 00:59, 6 August 2008 (PDT)|text=Nice job, Chuck. In the short term I would like to add vocal ranges to the 200 cross-posted scores I just completed from [http://artsongcentral.com/songs-and-sources/ "Art Song Central"]. Luckily Dave Newman has included the ranges, so it will be straightforward to add them.  Putting in the Bass Solo, Tenor Solo, ..., High, Medium, Low categories will not be straightforward without a definition for each.  This category information will allow these songs to be searched for by voice type, which I think is a nice addition to CPDL's functionality.  We just need to decide how to do it before I embark on editing each of the 200 works pages to include Ranga and solo categories.
 +
}}
 +
{{Reply|by=[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 06:52, 6 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
One quick procedural suggestion--should the topic title be updated to reflect that this is now focusing on choral ranges as well as solos? Those people following the Recent Changes log would reasonably think this is still about soloist ranges. I posted some comments in the page JHF created for visually showing vocal ranges before realizing it was based on discussion here.
  
Some fields are hidden or disabled until the user makes a choice that enables the field. That is on the instrument field. This will only be activated in case of Wind, mixed ensemble or Orchestra. I thought in other cases this would not give any extra information.
+
Here's my experience about soprano ranges. In modern choral music, it is not uncommon for non-soloist sopranos in choral works to have to go up to high B (Frank Martin's double-chorus mass) or high C (Sandstrom's Hear My Prayer, Oh Lord); in January, I attended a recording gig where the second sopranos in the chorus all had to sing high C and the first sopranos in the chorus were asked to sing high E! In modern editions of Renaissance scores, most editors transpose to avoid going above a high G, since it's difficult for many singers to go higher if they're trying to keep to a Renaissance sounds. It varies significantly by the style of music.
  
The Keyboard version checkbox gives a different value according to the choice made. In case of A cappella, it's <tt><nowiki>{{KbdRed}}</nowiki></tt>, in case of an ensemble it will be <tt><nowiki>{{KbdVer}}</nowiki></tt>. In all other cases it will be ignored but then it not visible anyway. Maybe that's bot clear form the form.
+
Ideally, I'd love to see actual range (c4-g5) if there were a way to search within a range: e.g. song contains maximum of two parts with upper range less than or equal to g5, lower range greater than or equal to C4, no more than one part in the range X-to-Y, etc. One possible approach to indicating standard range versus special range would be to use something like S for the usual soprano range, and S' or some other marking if the soprano needs to go higher or lower than the usual range. Would something like this be workable to indicate when special forces are required?
 +
}}
  
The {{net}} icon shouldn't have gone wrong, but apparently there's still a problem with evaluation of the URL.
+
==Editor/contributor names==
 +
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 20:15, 1 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
In [{{SERVER}}/wiki/index.php?title=Ave_Maria%2C_Op._52%2C_No._6_(Franz_Schubert)&diff=114409&oldid=114180 this edit] I changed the contributor's name in a score entry added by John Henry Fowler from "Resneck" to "IMSLP". As some of you will be aware, [http://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page IMSLP] doesn't require contributors to give their real names, instead the scanner's username is listed. I have previously changed "Feldmahler" to "Edward W. Guo" as this is the name given on his [http://imslp.org/wiki/User:Feldmahler user page], however, Resneck doesn't list his/her name. I think in the future, where a person's real name cannot be obtained, we should have the name of the resource that they contributed to in the first place. This only refers to when anyone but the editor or contributor adds the work to CPDL. I'm going away tomorrow but I'm sure the community will make the right decision on this without any further input from me.
 +
}}
  
I did use the <tt><nowiki>{{ScoreInfo}}</nowiki></tt>> template, but then I saw that in case of one page it says 'one pages'. That's all. Maybe you can change the rendering of the template to page(s), for the rare occasion there is only one page of sheet music.
+
== Franz Schubert ==
 +
{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 02:32, 1 August 2008 (PDT)|Is [[Franz Schubert]] in the category "Classical composer", "Romantic composer", or both ?  Currently his composer page is classified as both, and the various works pages are 50/50 Classical music/Romantic music. }}
  
As for the rest, I am working top-down, and construction of the correct links is the major challenge, so I didn't do the easy bits yet.
+
{{ItemPost|by=—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 04:34, 1 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 +
Hi John, as you know it's not uncommon to have composers who lived in a transition period between two styles (as for example Monteverdi and Beethoven) and who composed in both "old" and "new" styles or in a blend of both. This may be the case of Schubert, and hence his composer page cites both categories. As for his works, they would have to be analyzed one by one to decide toward which style they tend more, though this is a somewhat subjective choice.
  
I've been tinkering a bit last evening, and did some cosmetic work on the lay-out of the form. I've tried to make groups of fields which are more or less related to each other, and made the form less wide, making it easier to read. Not sure you like it, but I think it's an improvement. As far as now, I've only tested it with Firefox (on Mac) and Safari (on Mac). I'll be glad if someone else could check it with browsers they use, like Internet Explorer, Opera and what other flavours there are (like Linux based browsers).
+
The [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Schubert#Style Wikipedia] article about him says the following:
  
So I'll be working on items you pointed out, and hopefully you will see the result soon. Anyway, the form will be updated with any change I make.
+
:"While he was clearly influenced by the Classical sonata forms of Mozart and Beethoven (his early works, among them notably the 5th Symphony, are particularly Mozartean), his formal structures and his developments tend to give the impression more of melodic development than of harmonic drama.  This combination of Classical form and long-breathed Romantic melody sometimes lends them a discursive style.  His harmonic innovations include movements in which the first section ends in the key of the subdominant rather than the dominant. Schubert's practice here was a forerunner of the common Romantic technique of relaxing, rather than raising, tension in the middle of a movement, with final resolution postponed to the very end."
 +
}}
  
P.S. I thought maybe make two textboxes for the lyricist: one for the lyricist, and one for the the origin of the lyrics. So you would be able to not only give the the name of the lyricist, let's say J.R.R. Tolkien, but also the source: Lord of the Rings.
+
{{ItemPost|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 00:32, 4 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
 
+
In fact, Wikipedia also categorizes Schubert ''both'' as a Classical composer and as a Romantic composer. As another example, Wikipedia classifies [[Gustav Mahler]] both as a 20th century classical composer and as a Romantic composer, which should come as no surprise to those who know Mahler's music.  Even Arnold Schoenberg (for example, in the earlier parts of his monumental oratorio ''Gurre-Lieder'') wrote in the Romantic music idiom before turning to atonality later.
P.S.2 I could run a script before the form will be submitted, in which case the user would be notified, if any compulsory fields have no appropriate value, like the dash in drop-down lists. It might require an external Javascript (depending on the length of the script), in which case there will be another extension necessary. You will already need the HTMLETS-extension for the form.
 
 
}}
 
}}
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 00:40, 3 May 2008 (PDT)|
+
== Aria Music sub-category ==
The fact that [[Template:acap]] and [[Template:a cappella]] include both '''Instruments:''' and a linebreak was a problem from the startI wanted not to have the linebreak (and perhaps also the '''Instruments:''' part), but the winds were blowing in the opposite direction at the time. I would suggest that something shorter than "acappella" be used for the template name - editors like shorter names - maybe "acapp" would do just as well.  If it meets with approval, I'll implement it.
+
{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 03:31, 31 July 2008 (PDT)|Can we add "Aria" to ChoralWiki:Music Subcategories?  It is already in use, but not listed thereAnd can we use overall category "Solo" to contain works of all the various solo categories? (ie/ Lieder, Art song, etc, etc ...) As you know searching for the string "1v" would list all the solo works, but searches for strings of 3 characters or less don't work in Wikiland, so using a category to help this makes sense.
  
'''NB.''' I corrected a typo: "Instructions" should have been "Instruments". -- [[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 00:55, 13 May 2008 (PDT)
+
While we are at it, why does everything belong to "Category: Sheet music" ?
 
}}
 
}}
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|Talk]]</small></sup> 04:58, 3 May 2008 (PDT)|Excuse my intrusion here, but I saw something strange in the list of languages Robert requested to be added to the dropdown list: [[Wikipedia:Quenya|Quenya]] is in fact a language, but a constructed one created by JRR Tolkien and spoken only in his ''Middle-earth'' fantasy land. I know how fanatic the LotRings fans can be, but don't believe they'll ever compose a piece for choir in such language :))). If we're talking of the country Kenya, they speak Swahili there (not Kenyan! ;). By the way, the list of languages is continuously growing on CPDL, it would be a good idea to have a simple way of adding new ones to the list in the future. You all are doing a great work on this "new works" form, I can't wait to see it online! Regards
+
{{ItemPost|by={{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 04:51, 1 August 2008 (PDT)|text=
:N.B. Oh my, forget all I said above, there IS a work in Quenya language at CPDL! Incredible... lol
+
Last things first.  Not everything belongs to {{CiteCat|Sheet music}} - only score/works pages with CPDL editions on them do.  And for each edition with <nowiki>{{NewWork|2008-08-01}}</nowiki> appearing on it (note, it's today's date), that page will appear on [[ChoralWiki:2008-08-01 Scores]] by virtue of it being in both the "Sheet music" and "2008-08-01" categories. This is because the code that generates this listing is a DPL (Dynamic Page Listing) - take a look at the code if you're interested.  Without the "Sheet music" and date categories, you would not see the scores listed under "Most recent scores" on the [[Main Page]]. The easiest way to think of "Sheet music" is that it is for pages that have complete edition information on them.
}}
 
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 05:26, 3 May 2008 (PDT)|
+
Now on to Solos.  As presently understood, Solo [link removed - category now deleted] is an ''obsolete'' subcategory of {{CiteCat|Solo vocal music}}, and works in that subcategory are supposed to be recategorized in an appropriate subcategory of "Solo vocal music", such as {{CiteCat|Solo medium}}, {{CiteCat|Solo Soprano}}, etcIf you want to do a search for all solos, you could search on the keyword "solo" (which, conveniently and unlike "1vv" or the correct "1v", is a word with more than three characters) - or even "solo baritone" if, say, you wanted to hunt for baritone solos (but simply going to {{CiteCat|Solo Baritone}} would be much easier and not yield so many extraneous hits. 
Indeed, there is a work at CPDL in {{CiteCat|Works in Quenya|Quenya}}.  That's why I created the categories for it in the first place. :)  Actually, there are several Quenyan compositions, as well as compositions in some of the other Middle-Earth languages, but none hosted here.
 
}}
 
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 03:53, 4 May 2008 (PDT)|
+
:Note that {{CiteCat|Solo vocal music}} lists only voicings for various kinds of "standalone" solo music (ie. ''without'' chorus), including duets, trios, etc. There is a separate but corresponding {{CiteCat|Choral solo music}} category for voicings of solos that ''do appear'' within a choral texture or choral movement.
Thanks for the reply, Arie. For a view of the new form from IE 7 on Windows XP, [http://robertnottingham.com/arie_add_works_ie.GIF click here]. You can see that the boxes don't span the width of the window. Firefox in Windows produces a similar result - I guess it's just a question of screen resolutions.
 
  
I've just taken a look at [[Template:ScoreInfo]] and it seems to work just fine - see the [[sandbox]] for an example.
+
Now, for {{CiteCat|Arias}}.  As for "Christmas", there are two kinds - secular and sacred.  And the current {{CiteCat|Arias}} category contains both types, which is unfortunate, since this appears as a subcategory of {{CiteCat|Secular music}}.  Indeed, we should have '''two categories''' {{CiteCat|Secular arias}} and {{CiteCat|Sacred arias}}.  Note, we do already have {{CiteCat|Sacred songs}}, but (aside from many of these being for chorus/choir with or without solos) I think that is analogous to Lieder ''vs.'' Art songs, or Anthems ''vs.'' Motets, or ''Hymns ''vs. Chorales.  Do we make a change to two categories? ... I don't know.  I will at least list "Arias" under Seculular music on [[ChoralWiki:Music Subcategories]], since they already appear as a subcategory of "Secular music".  I would suggest that we need to reach a decision soon (better than later) and recategorize arias appropriately if we go with the two flavors of aria categories.
  
As for the cosmetic changes, I like the separating boxes. It's also better when it fits into the width of the browser window. Do you think it would be a good idea to merge "Title, opus etc", "Composer, etc.." and "Composition information" into one box, titled "Work information"? I'm not sure that the blue highlight boxes of "Title of work:", "Opus number:" etc is necessary.
+
I hope these explanations help and that people will add their thoughts.
 +
}}
  
A few more points that I've noticed:
+
== Contact with Rafael Ornes ==
*Can the subgenre list vary depending on whether "Sacred" or "Secular" is chosen? See [[:Category:Secular music|this page]] and [[:Category:Sacred music|this page]] for sacred and secular subgenres.
+
{{ItemPost|{{User|CHGiffen|Chuck}}[[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]] [[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 11:32, 24 July 2008 (PDT)|
*Can we have an additional (optional) field for sacred season? The choices would only be available if the user has chosen "sacred" music in the previous list.
+
[[User:Rafael Ornes|Rafael Ornes]], founder and manager of CPDL since its inception has recently replied to an e-mail which I sent earlier today (cc also to [[User:Bobnotts|Robert Nottingham]], [[User:Carlos|Carlos Augusto Mourão]], and [[User:John Henry Fowler|John Henry Fowler]], all of us sysops/admins at CPDL). In addition, Raf and I had a very cordial and informative telephone conversation about an hour and a half ago, in which he told me that he had sent the e-mail reply to me and the above admins, as well as expanding upon some of the information in the e-mail.
**Advent
 
**Christmas
 
**Epiphany
 
**Candlemas
 
**Lent
 
***Ash Wednesday
 
**Palm Sunday
 
**Holy Week
 
***Maundy Thursday
 
***Good Friday
 
***Holy Saturday
 
**Easter
 
***Ascension
 
**Whitsunday (Pentecost)
 
**Trinity
 
**Corpus Christi
 
  
*Under "Number of voices", "ie." should be "eg."
+
The main thrust of his message is that he has been considering turning over all elements of CPDL for many months, having become too inundated by work and family obligations to manage CPDL properly. The backlog for him has grown to the point that he was been unable to do much more than reply to some direct support emails and do absolutely required backups and mainenance.
*What is the "description" box under voicing for?
 
*Can you add a drop down box for choosing the catalogue type if other than opus number, eg. "K" for Mozart, "BWV" for Bach, HWV for Handel, etc.
 
  
In the output code:
+
This has been a very trying realization for Raf to arrive at, and, after almost 10 years of managing CPDL, he feels a deep sorrow over having to let it go.
*Instruments output should be
 
<tt><nowiki>'''Instruments''': {{WindAcc|Wind accompaniment: Flute, Oboe, Horn and Bassoon}}</nowiki></tt>
 
  
not
+
Raf is giving Carlos and me the necessary login/access information for the CPDL webserver.  He commends the active group of admins for working together extremely well.  He has offered to help us out and is glad not to have the great pressure overseeing such a large and vital endeavor as CPDL.  In our conversation by phone, Raf suggested that we might consider forming some sort of managing committee to do the many things necessary to address current needs of CPDL, such as upgrading the MediaWiki software and extensions, as well as managing the MySQL database directly.  I wish to consult with all admins (at least the active ones) as soon as possible, so that we might quickly come to agreement on how best to do all this.  We will do everything possible to maintain CPDL, enhance it, and preserve the legacy that Rafael has given to choral musicians through CPDL.
  
<tt><nowiki>'''Instruments''': {{WindAcc}}</nowiki>
+
I know many of you will be variously affected by this news.  Personally, although I am relieved that we have some guidance and direction in which to proceed, it is with a deep sense of compassion, appreciation, and respect for my friend Raf that I am also saddened by his needing to step back.  My best wishes and prayers are with him and his family.
 +
}}
  
<nowiki>:Flute, Oboe, Horn and Bassoon</nowiki></tt>
+
{{ItemPost|[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 16:02, 24 July 2008 (PDT)|
And in the output code:
+
I think these news are very positive for CPDL, even though it's sad that Raf needs to step back. You sysops/admins can count on me as an IT professional as well as to contribute to the budget that may be required to run the operations of CPDL.
*Instead of saying "Part of", can we have <tt><nowiki>'''Larger work:''' ''[[Name of Work]]''</nowiki></tt>
 
  
Good work!
+
As a sign of appreciation for everything Raf did for CPDL, I would propose to highlight his name in the home page, e.g. by adding a "Founder: Rafael Ornes" on the top of the page, or something like that.
}}
 
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Arie|Arie]] 01:56, 5 May 2008 (PDT)|
+
Max}}
Hi Robert.
 
*I've seen the problem with IE. I also had a chance to look at this morning on my work.
 
:Part of it seems like a rendering issue on Windows. The description of the fields should be 200 pix wide all the way down, and it isn't. By the way, the colouring of the description area isn't necessary, but I thought it might help reading the form. The colour blue is quite arbitrary.
 
:As for the textboxes, they have a fixed length (on screen). I estimated a total width of the page of about 800 pix wide, making it possible to view on about every monitor without problems. I might add another 200 pix to the lenght for the textboxes, making the page width about 1000 pix wide. I would very much like the textboxes have a fixed length on screen, instead of incorporating more JavaScript on the page.
 
  
*The ''Fieldsets'' are also quite arbitrary chosen. I just looked for bite-size chunks, but combining composer and workdata into one ''fieldset'' is also possible.
+
{{ItemPost|[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 21:41, 26 July 2008 (PDT)|
 +
Great idea! I've found myself mentioning CPDL and the Internet alongside penicillin when commenting that it's a great time to be alive. Although it's unfortunate that Rafael doesn't have time to remain actively involved, having some definiteness around his role may help pave the way for other admins to move projects along that were on hold.
  
*I already thought of changing subgenre according to choice of secular vs sacred, but I got entagled in a major problem with textencodings, which took quite a long time to sort that out. Thanks for the links to the subgenre.
+
Worth updating [[ChoralWiki:Contact_CPDL]] with updated phone or e-mail contact info. I flagged it for Cleanup but I'm not sure if someone reads each one or if it waits for volunteers to go through it when they have time--apologies if ths is redundant.
 +
}}
  
*I should have looked at the implementation of the instrumentation templates, and as for the <tt><nowiki>{{SoreInfo}}</nowiki></tt> template, I must have had my double vision glasses on...
+
==Proposal to eliminate file sizes from works pages==
 +
{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 04:55, 23 July 2008 (PDT)|Putting in the file size of PDF, MIDI and Source files represents a lot of additional time and bother.  Only when the file size is over 100 meg is it really helpful to the user.  Bob has suggested that we omit this information, and has started removing the "200 Kb." estimates on my recent postings, which means I can't search and replace this information in the future. I therefore will be omitting file sizes in future postings. This will make Bobs editing job easier, and eliminate the need to update the estimates to real file sizes in the future. }}
  
*For the sacred season, I assume that where you have an extra indentation, you would like some kind of separator??
+
{{ItemPost|—[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 15:26, 23 July 2008 (PDT)|
 +
In general I agree with you, John, file size is no longer a very useful information nowadays when everybody has broadband. I think that leaving just page format (A4/Letter) and number of pages will suffice. }}
  
*A drop down menu for the catalogues would be usefull indeed, but the only two sources I've found on the internet so far are [[http://members.tripod.com/~musiclassical/bwv.html Composer Name ~ Cataloger Ident Codes]] and this list on [[http://www.classical.net/music/composer/opus.html Classical Net]]. There are many ambiguities, and I didn't figure out how to implement this in a correct way. Any suggestion is more than welcome.
+
==CPDL.org donations address still valid?==
 +
{{ItemPost|[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 17:58, 22 July 2008 (PDT)|
 +
I mailed a check in April. The post office returned it to me with a yellow label over it saying "Return to Sender, not deliverable as addressed, unable to forward."
  
In all: the form is growing and best of all getting very complete. I will have not much time this week, so it may take until next weekend for some major updates. Sorry for that.
+
The address matches. Has the address changed? Should I resend?
 
}}
 
}}
{{ItemPost|[[User:Arie|Arie]] 06:46, 11 May 2008 (PDT)|
 
'''To all''': a new version of the Add new work form is on-line, incorporating as I believe most of the requested features, considering the above remarks.
 
  
To be tested by you what works best: at the accompaniment information: when you choose for ''Wind Ensemble'', the receiving script puts in ''Wind accompaniment'' in the template, whereas in the case of ''Mixed Ensemble'' this is put in the text box below, so may change it according to your will. Just try it.
+
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 18:51, 22 July 2008 (PDT)|
 +
Hi Vaarky. Thank you very much for your generosity and desire to donate to CPDL. Unfortunately, Raf Ornes is currently not involved in the project except when he is absolutely required to be (eg. the crash last year). If you want to get in touch, I suggest you email him, but don't hold out for a reply as he seems to have no time even to reply to emails these days. I have commented out the address on the [[ChoralWiki:Site support]] page for the moment, until Raf updates us with a new address. Again, thanks for your donation and I'm sorry that we can't accept it at this time.}}
  
Well the link: [http://62.234.158.69/~arie//wiki/index.php/Add_a_new_work Add a new work]}}
+
{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 05:10, 23 July 2008 (PDT)|
 +
Does this problem above signal the end of CPDL as we know it some time in the future ?  Is anyone else concerned? It seems we are busy with arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Can't we fix the Bulletin Board system, the "Add Score" script, update the Wiki software, and now we can't accept contributions ?  Our work on CPDL is just a crashed disk away from total destruction if no one is steering the ship... }}
  
==Discontinuation of Village pump==
+
{{ItemPost|[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 05:47, 23 July 2008 (PDT)|
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 22:06, 13 April 2008 (PDT)|This seems to have been superceded by the new wiki based bulletin board system now. Discontinue?}}
+
I had the same experience, with my check returned, and I'm very worried about the future of CPDL. An action is in progress by a couple of CPDL administrators to get in touch with Raf. If this attempt does not succeed, I think we should contact the administrator of the server farm where CPDL is hosted, and ascertain that back-ups are regularly made, and somebody can restore them in the case of need. My phpBB3 back-up bulletin board is always available for whoever wants to use it, and it may act as a contact point for our admins should CPDL collapse (that will make this wiki version collapse as well.}}
  
== Making text-translations pages into categories ==
+
{{ItemPost|?[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 15:01, 23 July 2008 (PDT)|As Choralia said, an attempt was made to contact Raf Ornes 9 days ago, during the spambot attacks (more about it below, under "Administrative remedies ... "). We emailed Raf through 3 different email accounts (CPDL's, personal Gmail and even his Church email) and still no reply. He seems to have shifted his priorities [http://www.redwoodcitydailynews.com/article/2008-6-11-vytas towards other projects] lately, and I'm trying to figure out what exactly this will mean for the future of CPDL.
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 08:13, 12 April 2008 (PDT)|Following up on a [[User_talk:CHGiffen#Suggestion_for_LinkText_template|suggestion]] made by [[User:Carlos|Carlos]], there are now three (for the time being) "test" '''text categories''' (as opposed to '''text pages'''):
+
}}
* {{CiteCat|Mirabile mysterium}}
 
* {{CiteCat|O salutaris hostia}}
 
* {{CiteCat|Sancta Maria, succurre miseris}}
 
Under the present system of text pages, one has to make edits on '''two pages''':
 
# use Template:LinkText to link a score page to its text page, '''and'''
 
# add a link on the text page back to the score page.
 
But with a text category, one only has to make a '''single edit''', using [[Template:LnkTxt]] on the score page which categorizes the score page in the text category and adds a suitable link to that category.  This makes for considerably less work for those working on texts and translations for our scores.  Moreover, the learning curve is not steep. For example, to categorize the Beethoven ''O salutaris hostia'', one adds
 
  
<tt><nowiki>{{LnkTxt|O salutaris hostia|Beethoven, Ludwig van}}</nowiki></tt>
+
{{ItemPost|[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 15:33, 23 July 2008 (PDT)|
 +
I did e-mail Rafael back then but got no reply.
  
in place of the usual <tt><nowiki>{{LinkText|O salutaris hostia}}</nowiki></tt>.
+
FWIW, I think the biggest
 +
priority (in addition to reaching him) would be to take a snapshot
 +
of CPDL and, ideally, the external score pages that are linked by it
 +
too (and then set up periodic updates to the back-ups to stay current).
  
As an example of how to migrate from a text page to a text category, I've moved the contents of the ''O salutaris hostia'' page to the corresponding category, replacing the contents on the original page with a redirect to the latter. Since the Beethoven setting has already been linked to the text category, the listing under "Muscial settings at CPDL" has been commented out.  As more settings are categorized, they will be removed from the list (for the time being, I will just comment them out until we reach a consensus that this is a good way to proceed). And finally, when all listed settings have been categorized (making the list empty), the "Musical settings..." section can be removed entirely and the (then superfluous) redirect from the text page to the category deleted.
+
My husband (I can provide further details in e-mail) is willing
 +
to take this on if the admins can provide:<br>
 +
1. consent (required);<br>
 +
2. a sense of the total size (ideally) and what rate of download would avoid causing problems;<BR>
 +
3. guidance where possible to avoid reinventing the wheel (he's used MediaWiki but not administered
 +
it on a server);<br>
 +
4. a login on the server if that improves things.
  
The ''Sancta Maria, succurre miseris'' text category was created anew just awhile ago, when I saw the Gabrielli setting and new that I had posted the Crecquillon setting(s) with text (so I made the text category and linked the two score pages to it).  Carlos made the ''Mirabile mysterium'' category as an initial experiment.  
+
Additionally, I'm willing to put up funds to underwrite
 +
a different hosting solution if needed (up to the
 +
low 4-digits $US per year for at least 5 years) if I can't talk an ISP I know
 +
into sponsoring hosting it on their site (they've sponsored
 +
projects I've been involved with in the past--I can
 +
provide details via e-mail about the ISP as well.
  
All in all, I feel that we could migrate fairly smoothly from text pages to text categories, and propose that this is a route we should seriously consider. I'm in favor of it, as you can tell, and I feel strongly that, migration issues aside, such a text category system will make it '''much easier''' for those adding new texts.
+
Please drop me a note if you'd like to discuss my husband's info/credentials
 +
or the ISP. I just don't want those aspects Googleable
 +
if I can avoid it.
 +
}}
  
As I explained to Carlos (and he agrees), we should be doing this on a trial basis, pending feedback from others on this issue.     
+
==Request for extension to [[Template:Editor]]==
 +
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 22:01, 21 July 2008 (PDT)|
 +
I've just been updating [[O magnum mysterium (Tomás Luis de Victoria)]] with the names of the editors from Mutopia (see <nowiki>http://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin/piece-info.cgi?id=244</nowiki>) who have edited this work. Unfortunately, the Editor template cannot take more than one editor in its current state. Would it be possible for someone to extend it in the same manner as [[Template:Language]]? I would but it takes me a while to get my head round template code and I know other people are better at it :-)
 
}}
 
}}
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 22:04, 13 April 2008 (PDT)|Seems like a good idea to me. I assume Psalm and Mass texts would be handled using the old template.}}
+
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|huh?]]</small></sup> 01:08, 22 July 2008 (PDT)|It's done, Rob! Check the new syntaxes on the template page: [[:Template:Editor]]. I already applied it to ''O magnum mysterium'' as a test.
 +
}}
  
== List of current CPDL problems ==
+
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 02:25, 22 July 2008 (PDT)|
(moved here from CPDL support, help, and feedback)
+
Thanks a lot, Carlos. That's a great help.
 +
}}
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Pml|Philip Legge]]<sub>[[Special:Emailuser/Pml|@]] [[User_talk:Pml|&#934;]]</sub> 10:10, 2 April 2008 (PDT)|Feel free to add items to this post
+
==LilyPond icons==
# choralwiki.org/phpBB2/ : Posting at forums still not working
+
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 06:17, 14 July 2008 (PDT)|
# choralwiki.org/phpBB2/ : phpBB2 software out-of-date
+
I came across [[August Neithardt|this page]] whilst doing some spam reverting and noticed a few LilyPond icons ({{Ly}}) in place of the usual text "LilyPond". What do people think about adopting this icon universally and adding it to the Legend? I've just created [[Template:extly]] which outputs an icon with the globe ({{extly}}) for LilyPond files hosted externally. I figure, the more icons and less text on score and composer pages, the better.}}
# cpdl.org/wiki/form/work.htm : Forms for adding works/composers cannot be updated
 
# cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Special:Preferences : Email authentication method not currently sending out email
 
# Procedural: no notification from [[User:Rafael_Ornes]] ([[User:Admin]]) of pending server downtime
 
# * Some routine administrative duties reguire [[User:Rafael_Ornes]] and are not done in a timely fashon.
 
# † Out of date wiki software - MediaWiki installation (update for increased security, reliability and to better prevent automated sign-ups) and extensions (such as [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/DPL Dynamic Page List] - update for increased functionality)
 
# † Replace all instances of <tt><nowiki>[[Category:CPDL Editors</nowiki></tt> with <tt><nowiki>[[Category:CPDL contributors</nowiki></tt> and rename the existing category to conform (see [[User talk:Bobnotts#Editor vs contributor|discussion]]).
 
NB:  Items with a * or † have been added to the list subsequent to its original posting.}}
 
{{ItemPost|--[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 15:29, 2 April 2008 (PDT)|Please note: for the forum-related items, a (temporary?) solution is available already using the phpBB3 forum at [http://choralia.altervista.org/phpbb/ http://choralia.altervista.org/phpbb/], which have been set-up with the same forums and categories as the "old" phpBB2 forum.
 
  
: Update: No advertisement about the above mentioned "back-up" forum is being made on CPDL. As an obvious consequence, such a  forum is not being used, despite the normal forum is out of order since several weeks, and despite the use of this alternative bulletin board under the wiki environment remains quite limited and not very user-friendly. It does not make much sense to me. Anyway, all things being equal, I'll close the back-up forum at [http://choralia.altervista.org/phpbb/ http://choralia.altervista.org/phpbb/] within the next few days.  --[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 07:03, 10 April 2008 (PDT)}}
+
{{ItemPost|[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;<sup><small>[[User talk:Carlos|huh?]]</small></sup> 08:09, 15 July 2008 (PDT)|Hi Rob, I never thought about this before, might be a good idea. The icons for the PDF and MIDI files are quite obvious and universally recognized. I just wonder if people visiting score pages won't be a bit confused at first with icons they don't know yet (I suppose we'd adopt icons for the other sources too, as Sibelius, Encore etc.?), but as soon as they look at the Legend everything would be clear. The ideal would be if we could make the tooltip (that appears when we drag the mouse over the icons) show the program name instead of the link that it shows now.}}
{{ItemPost|[[User:Pml|Philip Legge]]<sub>[[Special:Emailuser/Pml|@]] [[User_talk:Pml|&#934;]]</sub> 12:29, 10 April 2008 (PDT)|Hi Max, you might wish to simply disable the board; it can subsequently be re-enabled at the flick of a switch. I'm sorry if there isn't any current agreement about whether to migrate discussions to the choralia board – unfortunately CPDL is operating in a rather “headless” fashion at present!}}
 
{{ItemPost|--[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 15:50, 10 April 2008 (PDT)|Hi Philip, maintaining the board active, even though disabled, costs some money to me. It's a very small amount, so it's not a problem, however there is no reason to spend money for such a board if nobody uses it, and if there is no chance such a board is used in the future. I understand it's difficult that any decision or agreement is made at the present time. So, I'll keep it open further, and I hope that a decision is made, sooner or later.}}
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 23:28, 2 April 2008 (PDT)|Added item to list ( * ) }}
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 09:24, 6 April 2008 (PDT)|Added † items}}
 
  
== Should we consider setting up a mirror site? ==
+
= Archived topics =
(moved here from CPDL support, help, and feedback)
 
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 13:01, 27 March 2008 (PDT)|In light of the service interuptions, perhaps it is time to set up a mirror
+
Topics included in an archive are listed below the archive nameClick on the archive name to find the archived postings.
siteIt may also be a good time to consider incorporating CPDL.  I have
 
a lawyer friend who would do the necessary filings for free.
 
  
A bit of money would allow the mirror server to be paid for, and incorporation would put an official face on the organization, and also
+
== [[ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues/Archive 3|Archive 3]] ==
some protection for the contributers and administrators.
 
  
What do people think ?
+
* '''Administrative remedies to mitigate current (July 08) spam storm?
}}
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:MandyShaw|MandyShaw]] 19:35, 28 March 2008 (PDT)|I understood there already was a mirror of some sort in place, following the disastrous site failure last May. Maybe I am wrong about this, or maybe it's only the data that is mirrored. Was the recent downtime a server-level problem, or an Internet connectivity problem?
 
  
On another topic, the new forum is looking good, but it is worrying that it's on the main server (i.e. downtime cannot be discussed). I am also a bit worried that you do need wiki editing skills to submit forum entries - judging by their posts on the old forum, a lot of new posters of scores have never seen a wiki before. Are there any possible ways of front ending/simplifying this? I am happy to do some research myself if it would be useful.
+
* '''Category:New works added to Template:NewWorks
}}
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 00:31, 29 March 2008 (PDT)|I reckon a mirror site would be nigh on impossible to create. Allow me to explain. I don't know a lot about wikis but I do know that they are constantly changing (people are always making edits). Now if there were a mirror site which synchronised with the main site, say every 24 hrs, what would happen to edits on the mirror? If I edited a page on the mirror and someone else edited the same page on the main site, which edit should/would be kept?
 
  
However, as Mandy rightly says, there is a static mirror at http://www.choralwiki.org however, this site contains the bare bones of CPDL and isn't a resource that I think should be advertised (no searching, categories, texts and translations etc.)
+
* '''Testing a new set of Link templates
  
As for incorporating CPDL, I think that's a positive move but one should only be made with the appropriate support from Raf and other admins. It is a subject that would require discussion at great length.
+
* '''Lyricist template
  
Mandy: Unfortunately, with new posts on the old forums being overlooked because of technical problems, I felt it best to advise users (on the main page) to post on this new bulletin board. I agree that it may be harder to use for some users and if you have some suggestions, I'm sure [[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]] (who started this up) would be happy to hear them. However, I have to say that I haven't got a clue as to how this might be done.
+
* '''Semi-automation now available
}}
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:MandyShaw|MandyShaw]] 00:58, 29 March 2008 (PDT)|Re mirroring, the only way you could mirror the data properly in a wiki context, without the sort of simultaneous update problems you mention, would be to set up some sort of automatic replication and then, in the case of a failure, fail over to the other copy, then, when all was well again, re-synchronise and go back - i.e., never to try to use both versions at once. The replication could be done at regular intervals (in which case we might have to do a bit of tidying up once things were back to normal) or continuously (probably better). It all rather depends on how the data is stored, though.
 
  
Re easier wiki editing - I'll have a poke around - there are a couple of wikis I'm involved with that do provide a nice 'rich text' wiki text editor, maybe there is an open source version of this. I guess what is needed is
+
* ''''New template - copyright warning
  
a) select relevant forum
+
* '''How should we handle entries for composite works, where two separate "works" are in the same file
  
b) is this a new topic, or a response to an old topic? (if the latter, select topic to respond to)
+
* '''How should we handle entries for the second editor
 +
:: Moved to [[ChoralWiki:CPDL support, help, and feedback#How should we handle entries for the second editor]]
  
c) type text
+
== [[ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues/Archive 2|Archive 2]] ==
  
d) click on link which (somehow) causes the text to be fed into CPDL in the correct place.
+
* '''New template "[[Template:CompCatTxt|CompCatTxt]]"
}}
 
{{ItemPost|--[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 05:00, 30 March 2008 (PDT)|About one year ago I activated an automatic monitoring service that regularly checks the availability of the CPDL website. If we exclude the "big crash" of summer 2007, the measured availability is around 98.5%. This means that, if one tries to access CPDL at random over a sufficiently long period of time, he/she will experience one failed attempt every 66 successful attempts (approximately). Professional websites, using redundant servers in different locations, mirroring, etc., usually provide better figures, however I think 98.5% is acceptable for the nature of CPDL. What's important, in my opinion, is that the main asset of CPDL, i.e., the about 10 thousand scores, is safely stored. A temporary loss of access is far less important than a permanent loss of the scores. So, I would certainly recommend to pay a lot of attention to the back-up policy (e.g., frequent back-up of the scores onto a remotely located server) rather than to the real-time access.
 
  
As far as the forum is concerned, I think it would be relatively easy for me to reproduce the structure of the current CPDL forum on my servers of Choralia. I can activate the same PHPBB application, so the "look and feel" will be essentially the same as the normal forum. It can be used as a back-up until the normal forum is up and running again. Please just let me know if you (admins) want me to do that.
+
* '''Nomination for adminship
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 05:15, 30 March 2008 (PDT)|A new BBS that works sounds good to me.  I don't think (judging from the lack of postings)
 
that most CPDL users know how to post in the new way, and I miss the convenience and redundancy of the old
 
BBS System. }}
 
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:MandyShaw|MandyShaw]] 08:19, 30 March 2008 (PDT)|I agree with John on all counts. A new PHPBB based forum would be excellent.
+
* '''Moving to the new BBS system
  
Incidentally I have been investigating rich text editing for MediaWiki based wikis. While a new PHPBB forum is a much better way forward in my view, I do think there could be benefit in enabling a rich text editor. There's a nice example [http://tinyurl.com/23nhxz here]. It doesn't ''sound'' as if such an editor would be that hard to implement, but it has to be configured on the server.
+
* '''Add brass to accompaniment cat?
  
(By the way I generated that last paragraph using the rich text editor - found it really easy to use.)
+
* '''New template for formatting of credits in Translations section
}}
 
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:CHGiffen|Chuck]][[User talk:CHGiffen|<sub><small>'''talk'''</small></sub>]]&nbsp;[[User:Charles H. Giffen|Giffen]][[Charles H. Giffen|<sub>'''♫'''</sub>]] 10:11, 30 March 2008 (PDT)|The phpBB that we have been running is rather out of date (which I see every time as I log in as an admin there), but there is little that anyone except Raf can do about it (which is the main problem).  I set up the alternative board here because I had the feeling that the phpBB issues are not likely to be resolved with the expediency needed to keep lines of communication open.  Yes, this is more awkward to use (especially if one is wiki-unaware), but at least it seems to be working (it took awhile for the phpBB board to get used when it was originally set up, too).  What we really need is for Raf to upgrade the phpBB installation and/or restart the board.
+
* '''Uniform sort keys for categorization templates on sheet music pages
  
Mirror sites, rich text wiki-editors, BB's that have better antispam protection, and many other bells and whistles (eg. from MediaWiki) are all wonderful, and I wish we had them (good grief, you probably have no idea just how many spam accounts are deleted from the phpBB by hand, by me and by other admins) ... but without help from Raf on these issues, I'm not sure just how much we can do.
+
* '''New add works form
}}
 
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:MandyShaw|MandyShaw]] 16:37, 30 March 2008 (PDT)|Chuck, all points taken - it's clear that the admins are working within some pretty tight and frustrating constraints here. I think though that Choralia was offering to set up a new phpBB forum, to look like the old one, but on his own server.
+
== [[ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues/Archive 1|Archive 1]] ==
  
Re editing, I was just passing on my optimism that, when the wiki ''does'' at some point in the future get upgraded/tweaked, this functionality might find its way in & make the lives of new users (and therefore hopefully admins) a bit easier. (Also the sandbox I linked to may be useful to some as a MediaWiki wiki markup learning tool. I've been working with wikis myself off and on for a year now, but I still have to use the Preview button extensively - and it took me until very recently to find out that not all wiki markup languages are the same.)
+
* '''Discontinuation of Village pump
}}
 
 
 
{{ItemPost|--[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 20:55, 30 March 2008 (PDT)|I've set up a prototype new forum at Choralia. You can access it at [http://choralia.altervista.org/phpbb/ http://choralia.altervista.org/phpbb/]. If you like it, I can give the admin credentials to somebody who may possibly improve and refine the whole structure better than me.
 
}}
 
  
{{ItemPost|[[User:Johnhenryfowler|Johnhenryfowler]] 02:55, 31 March 2008 (PDT)|I've tried out the new BBS and it works well.  Suggest as an interim measure we advertize it
+
* '''Making text-translations pages into categories
as an option. }}
 
  
{{ItemPost|--[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 03:23, 31 March 2008 (PDT)|Let's test it a little bit internally before advertising. I'm finding it rather slow at the moment}}
+
* '''List of current CPDL problems
 +
:: Moved here from [[CW:SUP|CPDL support, help, and feedback]]
  
{{ItemPost|--[[User:Choralia|Choralia]] 15:41, 31 March 2008 (PDT)|I've just up-graded by a significant factor the quantity of resources available to the forum (database space and power). Let's see whether speed improves.}}
+
* '''Should we consider setting up a mirror site?
 +
:: Moved here from [[CW:SUP|CPDL support, help, and feedback]]

Latest revision as of 03:42, 21 April 2014

CW:OI redirects here.

External Bulletin Board Upgraded

As the first action of the CPDL Transition Committee, the external Bulletin Board (aka "forums") has been upgraded and is now located at forums.cpdl.org/phpBB3. The upgrade should prevent the majority of spammers and solve posting problems. You can use your old login on the upgraded BB. The Bulletin board here at ChoralWiki will be active at least for the time being, so feel free to use either.

Documentation

Operation and implementation issues

This page is part of the ChoralWiki:Bulletin board.

Starting a new topic: Click on the [edit] link at the right of the General topics (most recent first) section and type

== <title of new topic> ==

at the beginning of a new line, below the comment line that reads "Start NEW TOPICS immediately below this line, ABOVE (BEFORE) any other topics." Then post your initial message as described below. Thus, a new topic will appear before (above) any other topics, to make for easier browsing. For example, typing

== Looking for works in Quenya ==

will start a new topic, appearing as:

Looking for works in Quenya[edit]

Starting new topics in the Announcements and special topics section should follow the same protocol, but such topics should only be started by CPDL Admins/Sysops.

When adding a message to an existing topic, simply click on the [edit] link at the right of the topic title and post your message below any previously posted message(s) on the topic as follows:

Posting a message (note NEW syntax): Start a new line, and use the Template:ItemPost in the format:

{{ItemPost
|by=<your name & date>
|text=<your message>
}}

The easiest way to sign and date your message is to type four tildes (~~~~) for <your name & date>. Thus, for example, typing

{{ItemPost
|by=~~~~
|text=
Here is a sample message
spread
over
several lines.<br>

It even has more than one paragraph.
}}

resulted in:

 Help 

Here is a sample message spread over several lines.

It even has more than one paragraph.

N.B. The old syntax for Template:ItemPost still works but is now deprecated in favor of the new syntax.

You can track the activity in this forum by adding this page to your Watchlist - simply click on the watch tab at the top of this page.

Announcements and special topics (most recent first)

CPDL transition

 Help 

Rafael Ornes, founder and manager of CPDL, is stepping back from an active role with CPDL. Initially, Raf has turned the operational responsibilities to bobnotts, Carlos, CHGiffen, and johnhenryfowler. Since then, we have enlisted a group of volunteers who have been active on CPDL to serve with us as a CPDL transition committee charged with working out a transition plan. This will cover back-ups and other key areas of operation, setting up a working mechanism for donations (multiple people mailed donation checks and had them returned), etc.

In addition to the above-mentioned users, the following users have agreed to serve on the Transtion committee: choralia, Arie Fokkens, and vaarky. These enlistees have already contributed greatly to our understanding of what we need to do and how we should go about doing it.

Of course, Rafael Ornes serves ex officio on the committee and will be of enormous help in working out the many details of operation and maintenance which he has managed single-handedly for so long.

If you have any questions or comments, or if you would like to offer assistance, please feel free to post here or contact one of us.

 Help 

As many of you may have already noticed from the Main Page, the old "forums" (external bulletin board) is back up and running. It is accessible at forums.cpdl.org/phpBB3. Members of the Transition committee should be advised that there is a (hidden) transition committee forum there which they will see when they login at the phpBB3.

Use of this forum

 Help 

This forum is for more techincal discussions of ChoralWiki implementation and operation at CPDL, primarily of interest to admins and others doing editing of pages at CPDL. Some topics of a more technical nature or involving CPDL policy from CPDL support, help, and feedback will be moved here.

General topics (most recent first)

New administrator

 Help 

We are happy to announce that User:Vaarky has been made a sysop (administrator) at CPDL who, at a crucial time for CPDL, has stepped up and made siginificant contributions both in terms of editing pages, organization at CPDL, and as a member of the Transition committee. We are very grateful for Vaarky's help and accepting a greater role here. Congratulations and welcome!

  • Posted by: —Carlos Email.gif 06:12, 8 September 2008 (PDT)
 Help 

Congratulations, Vaarky! Be very welcome to the administrative Board, and keep up the good work!

Reply by: Vaarky 15:49, 8 September 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

Thanks! I've gotten so much out of CPDL--it's nice to be able to help out.

Proposal of a template for files externally hosted

  • Posted by: —Carlos Email.gif 01:50, 30 August 2008 (PDT)
 Help 

Hi everyone! Composer and contributor Adrian Cuello has just informed that his old website (http://www.audio.ya.com/adriancuello) is no longer available and all his externally hosted files (pdf's and midi's) will have to be redirected to a new site (http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es). This situation is quite common for contributors who host their editions in free servers and have to move elsewhere from time to time. My suggestion is that for these cases, editors used a template like this: {{website|Adrian_Cuello}}. Their links would look like

{{website|Adrian_Cuello}}Sonidos/aicamaraga.MID

instead of

http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/Sonidos/aicamaraga.MID

Whenever the editor had to move to another server, we'd make just one single change to Template:website instead of changing all pages he contributed. What do you all think?

Reply by: Vaarky 09:27, 30 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

Good idea. Does the directory structure usually stay the same between the old site and new one?

Reply by:Carlos Email.gif 10:01, 30 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

That would have to be a task for the website owner. But I believe most webservers allow their users to create custom subdirectory structures when necessary.

Reply by: Chucktalk Giffen 22:22, 30 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

I think this is an excellent idea, Carlos. And I think, in many cases at least, when a website is moved the directory substructure is indeed maintained.

One way to track the change (in case some hands-on maintenance is required) would be to have the template categorize pages on which it appears with a Category:Externally hosted, sortkey the same as the parameter passed to Template:Website (or Template:Exthost or Template:Webhost, either of which is a little less ambiguous sounding to me).

Reply by:Carlos Email.gif 04:16, 31 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

Hey Chuck, I liked the names you suggested, Webhost or Exthost give indeed a better idea of what the template would do; which one do you prefer? The new category would also be very handy (it's a pity we can't make it "invisible", though). Should we also categorize these pages to Category:External links?

Reply by: Chucktalk Giffen 00:33, 1 September 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

Hi Carlos. I've made a first try at Template:Website and it works in principle, although, in Adrian Cuello's case tne new site rejects deep-linking directly to the PDFs and MIDIs. For example, the link

http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/partituras/aicamaraga.pdf

sends you to the page

http://www.fortunecity.com/referercheck/denial.jpg

But ... there is no problem with getting to http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/composiciones.htm which lists his compositions with links to PDFs (as above) and MIDIs that work when clicked this page.

This shows that, even though the directory structure is maintained in the website change, one might still encounter problems such as the current one which does not support deep-linking for PDFs and MIDIs.

Hence, at best (for Adrian Cuello) we shall have to replace the separate extpdf and extmid links with a single net link of the form

[{{website|Adrian Cuello}} {{net}}]
Network.png

This was accomplished by setting

|case Adrian Cuello=http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/composiciones.htm

in Template:Website. I had previously accessed the same page by setting

|case Adrian Cuello=http://adriancuello.fortunecity.es/

and typing [{{website|Adrian Cuello}}composiciones.htm {{net}}], but incorporating compositiones.htm into the website case shortens what one has to type elsewhere.

I've not added categorizing the pages in Category:Exthost or Category:External links yet.

Reply by:Carlos Email.gif 07:31, 2 September 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

Hi Chuck, thanks for giving the initial steps and creating the template. I had been able to deep-link to Adrian's files, but I guess it was because I had opened his page first and had already the necessary cookies set. When I tried again later, I had the same problem as you. Your idea to include the whole web address in the template is perfect. I'll write Adrian to let him know that a solution is under way.

Changes to the Requests: namespace

  • Posted by: —Carlos Email.gif 17:17, 29 August 2008 (PDT)
 Help 

After a lot of research, I finally was able to find out why Requests: pages didn't accept talk pages (clicking on the "talk" link would erroneously create a score page instead): a relatively simple 1-line variable setting was missing from LocalSettings.php and is now included. Now all Request talk pages can be created and edited normally, and searched via the combo box namespaces list.

And since I was at it, I also renamed the "Requests:" namespace to the singular form "Request:", to comply with the standard followed by all other namespaces. Just by renaming it, all pages in this namespace were automatically renamed too. So now instead of Requests:Vago augelletto (Claudio Monteverdi), we have Request:Vago augelletto (Claudio Monteverdi). This renaming can be easily undone, in case the other admins disagree. The changes made to LocalSettings.php were:

(before)

$wgExtraNamespaces = 
        array ( 100 => "Requests",
              );

(after)

$wgExtraNamespaces = 
        array ( 100 => "Request",
                101 => "Request_talk" );

Classification of solo works as Bass, Baritone, Tenor, Countertenor, Alto, Soprano solos

 Help 

Using the low note/high note specification for an edition I need to know what makes a work have a particular voicepart's solo designation. Need the same definitions for LOW, MEDIUM,and HIGH Voice. ie. Range: B3 - E♭5 Does this make it Tenor solo ? Bass solo ?
Postscript: I found this Wikipedia article on vocal range which has proposed ranges, and some obvious mistakes which I have fixed:

Basic Choral Ranges:
---------------------
Soprano C4 - A5
Mezzo-Soprano: G3 - F5
Alto: E3 - E5
Counter-Tenor: G3 - F5
Tenor: D3 - A4
Baritone: G2 - G4
Bass: E2 - E4
---------------------

Perhaps a diagram like this might help:


g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g 
1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 6
          |           |     |     |   |     |       |     |
     Bass |-----------|-----|-----|---|     |       |     |
                      |     |     |         |       |     |
                Tenor |-----|-----|---------|       |     |
                            |     |                 |     |
                       Alto |-----|-----------------|     |
                                  |                       |
                           Soprano|-----------------------|

Johnhenryfowler 01:08, 5 August 2008 (PDT)

Reply by: Chucktalk Giffen 08:05, 5 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

I have slightly shrunk the range that John originally displayed (which went 6 octaves), from C1 to C7. And, because the Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass range indicators did not appear in his original, I made a few edits to make them appear. The original ranges that John gives have been preserved.

  • Posted by: —Carlos Email.gif 02:56, 5 August 2008 (PDT)
 Help 

John, there's something wrong with these ranges: Mezzo's high note A6 is higher than Soprano's C6! The same happens with Baritone's lower note A3, which is higher than Tenor's C3. Perhaps you made this confusion by thinking that the scale begins in A, when in fact it begins in C (...F0,A0,B0,C1,D1,E1,F1,G1,A1,B1,C2... etc.)

 Help 

Carlos, I did make that mistake. I've fixed it. What would you suggest for the ranges of Mezzo, Counter-Tenor, Baritone ? Does the above look correct now ?

Reply by:Carlos Email.gif 14:07, 5 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

Hi John, I am a tenor, so I can speak of my voice type: The tenors that I know which have the most limited range can still sing with no effort between C3 and G4. Those with wider range can sing as low as A2 and as high as A4 (my own range is G#2 to A4). Sorry for not being able to help with the other voices, I could ask my conductor later, she'll know it for sure.

 Help 

The vocal ranges given above are to be construed as choral ranges, not solo ranges. There is another important Wikipedia article on voice type which is more thorough and includes a discussion of solo vocal ranges.

In solo singing, one must take into account not just vocal range, but also tessitura, vocal weight, and timbre - and these combine to determine the voice types for solo voices. A singer's tessitura is where the voice has the best timbre (vocal quality or "color"), easy volume, and most comfort. For example, a soprano and a mezzo-soprano may have almost identical vocal ranges, but have tessituras that lie in different parts of the range (the soprano having the higher tessitura).

Here are typical vocal ranges (and typical extremes for soloists):

  • Soprano: (A3 or B3) C4 — A5 (C6 or D6; some coloraturas to F6, G6 or even A6)
  • Mezzo-soprano: (G3) A3 — G5 or A5 (B6 or C6)
  • Contralto (alto is really the wrong term for soloists): (E3 or F3) G3 &mdash: G5 (A5 or even B-flat5)
  • Countertenor: (G3) A3 — E5 (F5 or even higher for a Sopranist)
  • Tenor: (A2 or B2) C3 — C5 or D5 (E5 or F5)
  • Baritone: (F2 or G2) A2 — F4 (G4 or A4)
  • Bass: (C2 or D2) E2 or F2 — C4 or E4 (F4)
note that Basso profundo and Russian bass ranges may be even lower, as far down as B-flat1 or A1)

These are by no means authoritative, and indeed, both the New Harvard Dictionary of Music and the Grove Music Online ranges vary somewhat from my list above and the list John gives. John's and these last two ranges are probably intended to define typical choral vocal ranges.

For High, Medium, and Low voicings (ordinarily not gender specific, the female range being an octave above the male range), typical ranges might be:

  • High female (male): B3 or C4 — G5 or A5 (B2 or C3 — G4 or A4)
  • Medium female (male): G3 or A3 — E5 or F5 (G2 or A2 — E4 or F4)
  • Low female (male): E3 or F3 — C5 or D5 (E2 or F2 — C4 or D4)

Indeed these are good norms for choral vocal ranges, as well, corresponding to traditional Soprano (Tenor), Mezzo (Baritone), Alto (Bass) voices. Excursions outside these ranges call for special singers and/or special circumstances (such as large chorus in the case of choral ranges). Furthermore, composers often choose vocal ranges that suit the voices they have at hand (or ranges that they are fond of). For example, I have written more than my share of choral bass parts that extend down to D2 or up to E4, choral soprano parts that extend down to A3. Or, Haydn's Thereseinmesse has choral bass parts that extend from D2 up to F4! It seems that even in classical times, there was little limit to using extreme vocal ranges, even for choral music.

The period of solo vocal music also probably is important. For example, here are the bass solos from Messiah and their ranges:

  • Thus saith the Lord: C3 — D4
  • But who may abide (16A): A2 — F4
  • For behold, darkness shall cover the earth: A2 — D4
  • The people that walked in darkness: F-sharp2 — E4
  • Thou art gone up on high: C3 — E4
  • Why do the nations: B2 — E4
  • Behold, I tell you a mystery: A2 — D4
  • The trumpet shall sound: A2 — E4

With the exception of The people... the ambitus (range), collectively, is: A2 — E4. This is well within the solo baritone range and (except for The people...) even in the (low extended) tenor solo range. It is largely because of tessitura that these are considered bass solos by most people (even though they are often sung by baritones or bass-baritones).

As for John's example with ambitus B3 — E-flat5 is, on vocal range alone, probably best classified as baritone solo, although many tenors and basses could also sing it. The real question, though, is a matter of tessitura, vocal weight, and timbre required of the solo - and for these one must consult the score directly, carefully.

  • Posted by: Ebykm 18:03, 5 August 2008 (PDT)
 Help 

Excellent one Chuck, do you think we should put vocal range indicators in new scores?.

 Help 

Nice job, Chuck. In the short term I would like to add vocal ranges to the 200 cross-posted scores I just completed from "Art Song Central". Luckily Dave Newman has included the ranges, so it will be straightforward to add them. Putting in the Bass Solo, Tenor Solo, ..., High, Medium, Low categories will not be straightforward without a definition for each. This category information will allow these songs to be searched for by voice type, which I think is a nice addition to CPDL's functionality. We just need to decide how to do it before I embark on editing each of the 200 works pages to include Ranga and solo categories.

Reply by: Vaarky 06:52, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

 Help 

One quick procedural suggestion--should the topic title be updated to reflect that this is now focusing on choral ranges as well as solos? Those people following the Recent Changes log would reasonably think this is still about soloist ranges. I posted some comments in the page JHF created for visually showing vocal ranges before realizing it was based on discussion here.

Here's my experience about soprano ranges. In modern choral music, it is not uncommon for non-soloist sopranos in choral works to have to go up to high B (Frank Martin's double-chorus mass) or high C (Sandstrom's Hear My Prayer, Oh Lord); in January, I attended a recording gig where the second sopranos in the chorus all had to sing high C and the first sopranos in the chorus were asked to sing high E! In modern editions of Renaissance scores, most editors transpose to avoid going above a high G, since it's difficult for many singers to go higher if they're trying to keep to a Renaissance sounds. It varies significantly by the style of music.

Ideally, I'd love to see actual range (c4-g5) if there were a way to search within a range: e.g. song contains maximum of two parts with upper range less than or equal to g5, lower range greater than or equal to C4, no more than one part in the range X-to-Y, etc. One possible approach to indicating standard range versus special range would be to use something like S for the usual soprano range, and S' or some other marking if the soprano needs to go higher or lower than the usual range. Would something like this be workable to indicate when special forces are required?

Editor/contributor names

 Help 

In this edit I changed the contributor's name in a score entry added by John Henry Fowler from "Resneck" to "IMSLP". As some of you will be aware, IMSLP doesn't require contributors to give their real names, instead the scanner's username is listed. I have previously changed "Feldmahler" to "Edward W. Guo" as this is the name given on his user page, however, Resneck doesn't list his/her name. I think in the future, where a person's real name cannot be obtained, we should have the name of the resource that they contributed to in the first place. This only refers to when anyone but the editor or contributor adds the work to CPDL. I'm going away tomorrow but I'm sure the community will make the right decision on this without any further input from me.

Franz Schubert

 Help 

Is Franz Schubert in the category "Classical composer", "Romantic composer", or both ? Currently his composer page is classified as both, and the various works pages are 50/50 Classical music/Romantic music.

  • Posted by: —Carlos Email.gif 04:34, 1 August 2008 (PDT)
 Help 

Hi John, as you know it's not uncommon to have composers who lived in a transition period between two styles (as for example Monteverdi and Beethoven) and who composed in both "old" and "new" styles or in a blend of both. This may be the case of Schubert, and hence his composer page cites both categories. As for his works, they would have to be analyzed one by one to decide toward which style they tend more, though this is a somewhat subjective choice.

The Wikipedia article about him says the following:

"While he was clearly influenced by the Classical sonata forms of Mozart and Beethoven (his early works, among them notably the 5th Symphony, are particularly Mozartean), his formal structures and his developments tend to give the impression more of melodic development than of harmonic drama. This combination of Classical form and long-breathed Romantic melody sometimes lends them a discursive style. His harmonic innovations include movements in which the first section ends in the key of the subdominant rather than the dominant. Schubert's practice here was a forerunner of the common Romantic technique of relaxing, rather than raising, tension in the middle of a movement, with final resolution postponed to the very end."
 Help 

In fact, Wikipedia also categorizes Schubert both as a Classical composer and as a Romantic composer. As another example, Wikipedia classifies Gustav Mahler both as a 20th century classical composer and as a Romantic composer, which should come as no surprise to those who know Mahler's music. Even Arnold Schoenberg (for example, in the earlier parts of his monumental oratorio Gurre-Lieder) wrote in the Romantic music idiom before turning to atonality later.

Aria Music sub-category

 Help 

Can we add "Aria" to ChoralWiki:Music Subcategories? It is already in use, but not listed there. And can we use overall category "Solo" to contain works of all the various solo categories? (ie/ Lieder, Art song, etc, etc ...) As you know searching for the string "1v" would list all the solo works, but searches for strings of 3 characters or less don't work in Wikiland, so using a category to help this makes sense.

While we are at it, why does everything belong to "Category: Sheet music" ?

 Help 

Last things first. Not everything belongs to Sheet music - only score/works pages with CPDL editions on them do. And for each edition with {{NewWork|2008-08-01}} appearing on it (note, it's today's date), that page will appear on ChoralWiki:2008-08-01 Scores by virtue of it being in both the "Sheet music" and "2008-08-01" categories. This is because the code that generates this listing is a DPL (Dynamic Page Listing) - take a look at the code if you're interested. Without the "Sheet music" and date categories, you would not see the scores listed under "Most recent scores" on the Main Page. The easiest way to think of "Sheet music" is that it is for pages that have complete edition information on them.

Now on to Solos. As presently understood, Solo [link removed - category now deleted] is an obsolete subcategory of Solo vocal music, and works in that subcategory are supposed to be recategorized in an appropriate subcategory of "Solo vocal music", such as Solo medium, Solo Soprano, etc. If you want to do a search for all solos, you could search on the keyword "solo" (which, conveniently and unlike "1vv" or the correct "1v", is a word with more than three characters) - or even "solo baritone" if, say, you wanted to hunt for baritone solos (but simply going to Solo Baritone would be much easier and not yield so many extraneous hits.

Note that Solo vocal music lists only voicings for various kinds of "standalone" solo music (ie. without chorus), including duets, trios, etc. There is a separate but corresponding Choral solo music category for voicings of solos that do appear within a choral texture or choral movement.

Now, for Arias. As for "Christmas", there are two kinds - secular and sacred. And the current Arias category contains both types, which is unfortunate, since this appears as a subcategory of Secular music. Indeed, we should have two categories Secular arias and Sacred arias. Note, we do already have Sacred songs, but (aside from many of these being for chorus/choir with or without solos) I think that is analogous to Lieder vs. Art songs, or Anthems vs. Motets, or Hymns vs. Chorales. Do we make a change to two categories? ... I don't know. I will at least list "Arias" under Seculular music on ChoralWiki:Music Subcategories, since they already appear as a subcategory of "Secular music". I would suggest that we need to reach a decision soon (better than later) and recategorize arias appropriately if we go with the two flavors of aria categories.

I hope these explanations help and that people will add their thoughts.

Contact with Rafael Ornes

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Rafael Ornes, founder and manager of CPDL since its inception has recently replied to an e-mail which I sent earlier today (cc also to Robert Nottingham, Carlos Augusto Mourão, and John Henry Fowler, all of us sysops/admins at CPDL). In addition, Raf and I had a very cordial and informative telephone conversation about an hour and a half ago, in which he told me that he had sent the e-mail reply to me and the above admins, as well as expanding upon some of the information in the e-mail.

The main thrust of his message is that he has been considering turning over all elements of CPDL for many months, having become too inundated by work and family obligations to manage CPDL properly. The backlog for him has grown to the point that he was been unable to do much more than reply to some direct support emails and do absolutely required backups and mainenance.

This has been a very trying realization for Raf to arrive at, and, after almost 10 years of managing CPDL, he feels a deep sorrow over having to let it go.

Raf is giving Carlos and me the necessary login/access information for the CPDL webserver. He commends the active group of admins for working together extremely well. He has offered to help us out and is glad not to have the great pressure overseeing such a large and vital endeavor as CPDL. In our conversation by phone, Raf suggested that we might consider forming some sort of managing committee to do the many things necessary to address current needs of CPDL, such as upgrading the MediaWiki software and extensions, as well as managing the MySQL database directly. I wish to consult with all admins (at least the active ones) as soon as possible, so that we might quickly come to agreement on how best to do all this. We will do everything possible to maintain CPDL, enhance it, and preserve the legacy that Rafael has given to choral musicians through CPDL.

I know many of you will be variously affected by this news. Personally, although I am relieved that we have some guidance and direction in which to proceed, it is with a deep sense of compassion, appreciation, and respect for my friend Raf that I am also saddened by his needing to step back. My best wishes and prayers are with him and his family.

  • Posted by: Choralia 16:02, 24 July 2008 (PDT)
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I think these news are very positive for CPDL, even though it's sad that Raf needs to step back. You sysops/admins can count on me as an IT professional as well as to contribute to the budget that may be required to run the operations of CPDL.

As a sign of appreciation for everything Raf did for CPDL, I would propose to highlight his name in the home page, e.g. by adding a "Founder: Rafael Ornes" on the top of the page, or something like that.

Max

  • Posted by: Vaarky 21:41, 26 July 2008 (PDT)
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Great idea! I've found myself mentioning CPDL and the Internet alongside penicillin when commenting that it's a great time to be alive. Although it's unfortunate that Rafael doesn't have time to remain actively involved, having some definiteness around his role may help pave the way for other admins to move projects along that were on hold.

Worth updating ChoralWiki:Contact_CPDL with updated phone or e-mail contact info. I flagged it for Cleanup but I'm not sure if someone reads each one or if it waits for volunteers to go through it when they have time--apologies if ths is redundant.

Proposal to eliminate file sizes from works pages

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Putting in the file size of PDF, MIDI and Source files represents a lot of additional time and bother. Only when the file size is over 100 meg is it really helpful to the user. Bob has suggested that we omit this information, and has started removing the "200 Kb." estimates on my recent postings, which means I can't search and replace this information in the future. I therefore will be omitting file sizes in future postings. This will make Bobs editing job easier, and eliminate the need to update the estimates to real file sizes in the future.

  • Posted by: —Carlos Email.gif 15:26, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
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In general I agree with you, John, file size is no longer a very useful information nowadays when everybody has broadband. I think that leaving just page format (A4/Letter) and number of pages will suffice.

CPDL.org donations address still valid?

  • Posted by: Vaarky 17:58, 22 July 2008 (PDT)
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I mailed a check in April. The post office returned it to me with a yellow label over it saying "Return to Sender, not deliverable as addressed, unable to forward."

The address matches. Has the address changed? Should I resend?

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Hi Vaarky. Thank you very much for your generosity and desire to donate to CPDL. Unfortunately, Raf Ornes is currently not involved in the project except when he is absolutely required to be (eg. the crash last year). If you want to get in touch, I suggest you email him, but don't hold out for a reply as he seems to have no time even to reply to emails these days. I have commented out the address on the ChoralWiki:Site support page for the moment, until Raf updates us with a new address. Again, thanks for your donation and I'm sorry that we can't accept it at this time.

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Does this problem above signal the end of CPDL as we know it some time in the future ? Is anyone else concerned? It seems we are busy with arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Can't we fix the Bulletin Board system, the "Add Score" script, update the Wiki software, and now we can't accept contributions ? Our work on CPDL is just a crashed disk away from total destruction if no one is steering the ship...

  • Posted by: Choralia 05:47, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
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I had the same experience, with my check returned, and I'm very worried about the future of CPDL. An action is in progress by a couple of CPDL administrators to get in touch with Raf. If this attempt does not succeed, I think we should contact the administrator of the server farm where CPDL is hosted, and ascertain that back-ups are regularly made, and somebody can restore them in the case of need. My phpBB3 back-up bulletin board is always available for whoever wants to use it, and it may act as a contact point for our admins should CPDL collapse (that will make this wiki version collapse as well.

  • Posted by: ?Carlos Email.gif 15:01, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
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As Choralia said, an attempt was made to contact Raf Ornes 9 days ago, during the spambot attacks (more about it below, under "Administrative remedies ... "). We emailed Raf through 3 different email accounts (CPDL's, personal Gmail and even his Church email) and still no reply. He seems to have shifted his priorities towards other projects lately, and I'm trying to figure out what exactly this will mean for the future of CPDL.

  • Posted by: Vaarky 15:33, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
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I did e-mail Rafael back then but got no reply.

FWIW, I think the biggest priority (in addition to reaching him) would be to take a snapshot of CPDL and, ideally, the external score pages that are linked by it too (and then set up periodic updates to the back-ups to stay current).

My husband (I can provide further details in e-mail) is willing to take this on if the admins can provide:
1. consent (required);
2. a sense of the total size (ideally) and what rate of download would avoid causing problems;
3. guidance where possible to avoid reinventing the wheel (he's used MediaWiki but not administered it on a server);
4. a login on the server if that improves things.

Additionally, I'm willing to put up funds to underwrite a different hosting solution if needed (up to the low 4-digits $US per year for at least 5 years) if I can't talk an ISP I know into sponsoring hosting it on their site (they've sponsored projects I've been involved with in the past--I can provide details via e-mail about the ISP as well.

Please drop me a note if you'd like to discuss my husband's info/credentials or the ISP. I just don't want those aspects Googleable if I can avoid it.

Request for extension to Template:Editor

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I've just been updating O magnum mysterium (Tomás Luis de Victoria) with the names of the editors from Mutopia (see http://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin/piece-info.cgi?id=244) who have edited this work. Unfortunately, the Editor template cannot take more than one editor in its current state. Would it be possible for someone to extend it in the same manner as Template:Language? I would but it takes me a while to get my head round template code and I know other people are better at it :-)

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It's done, Rob! Check the new syntaxes on the template page: Template:Editor. I already applied it to O magnum mysterium as a test.

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Thanks a lot, Carlos. That's a great help.

LilyPond icons

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I came across this page whilst doing some spam reverting and noticed a few LilyPond icons (Icon_ly.gif) in place of the usual text "LilyPond". What do people think about adopting this icon universally and adding it to the Legend? I've just created Template:extly which outputs an icon with the globe (Icon_ly_ext.png) for LilyPond files hosted externally. I figure, the more icons and less text on score and composer pages, the better.

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Hi Rob, I never thought about this before, might be a good idea. The icons for the PDF and MIDI files are quite obvious and universally recognized. I just wonder if people visiting score pages won't be a bit confused at first with icons they don't know yet (I suppose we'd adopt icons for the other sources too, as Sibelius, Encore etc.?), but as soon as they look at the Legend everything would be clear. The ideal would be if we could make the tooltip (that appears when we drag the mouse over the icons) show the program name instead of the link that it shows now.

Archived topics

Topics included in an archive are listed below the archive name. Click on the archive name to find the archived postings.

Archive 3

  • Administrative remedies to mitigate current (July 08) spam storm?
  • Category:New works added to Template:NewWorks
  • Testing a new set of Link templates
  • Lyricist template
  • Semi-automation now available
  • 'New template - copyright warning
  • How should we handle entries for composite works, where two separate "works" are in the same file
  • How should we handle entries for the second editor
Moved to ChoralWiki:CPDL support, help, and feedback#How should we handle entries for the second editor

Archive 2

  • Nomination for adminship
  • Moving to the new BBS system
  • Add brass to accompaniment cat?
  • New template for formatting of credits in Translations section
  • Uniform sort keys for categorization templates on sheet music pages
  • New add works form

Archive 1

  • Discontinuation of Village pump
  • Making text-translations pages into categories
  • List of current CPDL problems
Moved here from CPDL support, help, and feedback
  • Should we consider setting up a mirror site?
Moved here from CPDL support, help, and feedback