Category talk:Laments

Suggest possibly renaming this category to "Secular laments"

Posted by: Chucktalk Giffen♫ 22:18, 22 January 2011 (CST)

Help

Continuing the discussion from Talk:Musae Iovis (Nicolas Gombert) and the note on the present category page... It seems to me that the category presently envisioned by Vaarky might better be called "Secular laments" and a second category "Religious laments" or "Sacred laments" be created for works such as "Lamentations of Jeremiah", "Absalon, fili mi", "David's Lamentation", "Lugebat David Absalon", etc. On the other hand, it may be that people think we should keep the present category as a "container category" AND actually create the "subcategories" referred to in the description (perhaps along with other subcategories?), and place works in these subcategories. I'm not sure if "Royalty elegies" (or "Royalty laments") covers enough ground - perhaps "Political elegies" (remember that such elegies have also been written for U.S. American Presidents, such as Lincoln and Kennedy, to name two). My preference, however, is for renaming this category to "Secular laments".

Reply by: Vaarky 22:46, 22 January 2011 (CST)  Help  Makes sense to rename it Secular laments. We can subdivide later if the volume of secular laments is high enough, but the type of secular lament will often be obvious from the title. This would also allow for a parallel Sacred laments category. I've also wrote to User:Cydonia via his talk page to invite him to comment.

Reply by: Cydonia 14:47, 24 January 2011 (CST)  Help  Thanks for bringing this to my attention - I'd not been following the discussion at Talk:Musae Iovis (Nicolas Gombert) and so I'd assumed, as the category was a member of Category:Sacred music and the page mentioned the Lamentations of Jeremiah, that it would include both secular and sacred laments. That said, I've no objections to renaming it Secular laments and adjusting the use to suit. Category:Secular laments would leave open the possibility of Category:Sacred laments, though I don't know that the need for the latter category is so pressing as the former - as there is already a page Lamentations of Jeremiah, a category Category:Lamentations of Jeremiah and a page Absalon, fili mi to coordinate the main groups of sacred laments that I can think of and that are represented on CPDL at the moment, so perhaps we don't need a category to group together different types of sacred lament. When the description on the current category page is reworded to reflect the outcome of this discussion, it might be worthwhile describing the types of lament included as something other than 'subcategories', unless it is actually proposed to make each of them a cat in its own right (which, I'd have thought, would be overcategorisation at the moment).

I too like Secular laments. Lamentations of Jeremiah contains no clue about the existence of the closely related Tenebrae responsories, and probably should be reorganized under Liturgy of the Hours/Matins/Tenebrae/Lessons/Lamentations of Jeremiah. Richard Mix 21:13, 26 January 2011 (CST)

Posted by: Vaarky 00:53, 31 January 2011 (CST)	Help
Before renaming this category Secular laments, what should be done about the sacred pieces that are tagged as Laments? I think there is agreement not to have a Sacred laments category, so should the tags be removed or should they be replaced with something else?