Category talk:Laments: Difference between revisions
Richard Mix (talk | contribs) (reply) |
(how about "funerary works" or just "laments") |
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:I too like Secular laments. Lamentations of Jeremiah contains no clue about the existence of the closely related {{CiteCat|Tenebrae responsories}}, and probably should be reorganized under Liturgy of the Hours/Matins/Tenebrae/Lessons/Lamentations of Jeremiah. [[User:Richard Mix|Richard Mix]] 21:13, 26 January 2011 (CST) | :I too like Secular laments. Lamentations of Jeremiah contains no clue about the existence of the closely related {{CiteCat|Tenebrae responsories}}, and probably should be reorganized under Liturgy of the Hours/Matins/Tenebrae/Lessons/Lamentations of Jeremiah. [[User:Richard Mix|Richard Mix]] 21:13, 26 January 2011 (CST) | ||
{{Reply|by=[[User:Jonathang|Jonathang]] 14 December 2012|text=Can we not have a supercategory for "funerary works"? Not every funerary work qualifies as a lament or an elegy, or if that proposition is controversial why not just "lament"? [[User:Jonathang|Jonathang]] ([[User talk:Jonathang|talk]]) 12:18, 14 December 2012 (CST)}} | |||
== What to do about Sacred laments? == | |||
{{ItemPost|by=[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 00:53, 31 January 2011 (CST)|text= | {{ItemPost|by=[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 00:53, 31 January 2011 (CST)|text= | ||
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To clarify, if this cat is renamed to 'Secular laments', mine's a !vote against 'Sacred laments' - not convinced of its usefulness. [[:Category:David's Lament]] could be useful, for settings of [[Absalon, fili mi]] and the closely related texts, but otherwise I'd suggest that the various genres of Sacred music which have aspects of lamentation (Absalom, Lams of Jem, perhaps some pieces for Holy Innocents, anthems for the martyrdom of Charles I (though we don't have any here yet) etc.) aren't really in need of a cat to group them together. I'd be inclined to call a Requiem a Mass, rather than a Lament, and wonder if a Laments cat that includes Requiems is too broad to be useful. | To clarify, if this cat is renamed to 'Secular laments', mine's a !vote against 'Sacred laments' - not convinced of its usefulness. [[:Category:David's Lament]] could be useful, for settings of [[Absalon, fili mi]] and the closely related texts, but otherwise I'd suggest that the various genres of Sacred music which have aspects of lamentation (Absalom, Lams of Jem, perhaps some pieces for Holy Innocents, anthems for the martyrdom of Charles I (though we don't have any here yet) etc.) aren't really in need of a cat to group them together. I'd be inclined to call a Requiem a Mass, rather than a Lament, and wonder if a Laments cat that includes Requiems is too broad to be useful. | ||
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I now see Chuck weighed in on [[Talk:Musae Iovis (Nicolas Gombert)|the other page]] too. I too personally find Sacred laments less than useful for my own purposes, but the fact that someone could sell a publisher on an umbrella treatment of Requiems & Tenebrae ([http://www.jstor.org/pss/943440 Music of Mourning and Consolation]) should suggest to us that there may be a cpdl audience as well. [[:Category:David's Lament]] is admirably focused, but where would those users look for it without a parent category? In case clarification is necessary, R, T & HI works would only be listed in the subcategories, yes? [[User:Richard Mix|Richard Mix]] 18:03, 31 January 2011 (CST) | :I now see Chuck weighed in on [[Talk:Musae Iovis (Nicolas Gombert)|the other page]] too. I too personally find Sacred laments less than useful for my own purposes, but the fact that someone could sell a publisher on an umbrella treatment of Requiems & Tenebrae ([http://www.jstor.org/pss/943440 Music of Mourning and Consolation]) should suggest to us that there may be a cpdl audience as well. [[:Category:David's Lament]] is admirably focused, but where would those users look for it without a parent category? In case clarification is necessary, R, T & HI works would only be listed in the subcategories, yes? [[User:Richard Mix|Richard Mix]] 18:03, 31 January 2011 (CST) | ||
{{Reply|by=[[User:Vaarky|Vaarky]] 22:52, 2 February 2011 (CST)|text= | |||
Richard makes a good point. So it sounds as though we should create a Sacred laments page with as many appropriate categories as we can think of, and with a text description encouraging people to use the subcategory tags only whenever possible. Can someone create the Sacred laments page with the appropriate subcategories so the few sacred works currently categorized as Laments can be recategorized appropriately? | |||
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:I've made {{CiteCat|Sacred laments}}, but the more I think about this the more I see the other point of view. I'd better sleep on it! Btw, I see there already is a [[Absalon, fili mi|David's lament]] page. [[User:Richard Mix|Richard Mix]] 03:23, 3 February 2011 (CST) |
Latest revision as of 18:18, 14 December 2012
Suggest possibly renaming this category to "Secular laments"
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Continuing the discussion from Talk:Musae Iovis (Nicolas Gombert) and the note on the present category page... It seems to me that the category presently envisioned by Vaarky might better be called "Secular laments" and a second category "Religious laments" or "Sacred laments" be created for works such as "Lamentations of Jeremiah", "Absalon, fili mi", "David's Lamentation", "Lugebat David Absalon", etc. On the other hand, it may be that people think we should keep the present category as a "container category" AND actually create the "subcategories" referred to in the description (perhaps along with other subcategories?), and place works in these subcategories. I'm not sure if "Royalty elegies" (or "Royalty laments") covers enough ground - perhaps "Political elegies" (remember that such elegies have also been written for U.S. American Presidents, such as Lincoln and Kennedy, to name two). My preference, however, is for renaming this category to "Secular laments". |
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- I too like Secular laments. Lamentations of Jeremiah contains no clue about the existence of the closely related Tenebrae responsories, and probably should be reorganized under Liturgy of the Hours/Matins/Tenebrae/Lessons/Lamentations of Jeremiah. Richard Mix 21:13, 26 January 2011 (CST)
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What to do about Sacred laments?
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Before renaming this category Secular laments, what should be done about the sacred pieces that are tagged as Laments? I think there is agreement not to have a Sacred laments category, so should the tags be removed or should they be replaced with something else? |
- Subcat:David's Lament would cover us for the time being, but I read the consensus as _for_ Sacred laments, which seems simpler. Other sub-categories would of course be Requiems, Holy Innocents, and a reorganized Tenebrae music. Lamentatio Sanctae Matris Ecclesiae Constantinopolitanae (Guillaume Dufay) stradles the secular, I suppose. Have I missed anything else registering on the sad-ometer? Richard Mix 04:19, 31 January 2011 (CST)
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To clarify, if this cat is renamed to 'Secular laments', mine's a !vote against 'Sacred laments' - not convinced of its usefulness. Category:David's Lament could be useful, for settings of Absalon, fili mi and the closely related texts, but otherwise I'd suggest that the various genres of Sacred music which have aspects of lamentation (Absalom, Lams of Jem, perhaps some pieces for Holy Innocents, anthems for the martyrdom of Charles I (though we don't have any here yet) etc.) aren't really in need of a cat to group them together. I'd be inclined to call a Requiem a Mass, rather than a Lament, and wonder if a Laments cat that includes Requiems is too broad to be useful. |
- I now see Chuck weighed in on the other page too. I too personally find Sacred laments less than useful for my own purposes, but the fact that someone could sell a publisher on an umbrella treatment of Requiems & Tenebrae (Music of Mourning and Consolation) should suggest to us that there may be a cpdl audience as well. Category:David's Lament is admirably focused, but where would those users look for it without a parent category? In case clarification is necessary, R, T & HI works would only be listed in the subcategories, yes? Richard Mix 18:03, 31 January 2011 (CST)
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- I've made Sacred laments, but the more I think about this the more I see the other point of view. I'd better sleep on it! Btw, I see there already is a David's lament page. Richard Mix 03:23, 3 February 2011 (CST)