Category talk:Laments

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Suggest possibly renaming this category to "Secular laments"

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Continuing the discussion from Talk:Musae Iovis (Nicolas Gombert) and the note on the present category page... It seems to me that the category presently envisioned by Vaarky might better be called "Secular laments" and a second category "Religious laments" or "Sacred laments" be created for works such as "Lamentations of Jeremiah", "Absalon, fili mi", "David's Lamentation", "Lugebat David Absalon", etc.

On the other hand, it may be that people think we should keep the present category as a "container category" AND actually create the "subcategories" referred to in the description (perhaps along with other subcategories?), and place works in these subcategories. I'm not sure if "Royalty elegies" (or "Royalty laments") covers enough ground - perhaps "Political elegies" (remember that such elegies have also been written for U.S. American Presidents, such as Lincoln and Kennedy, to name two).

My preference, however, is for renaming this category to "Secular laments".

Reply by: Vaarky 22:46, 22 January 2011 (CST)

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Makes sense to rename it Secular laments. We can subdivide later if the volume of secular laments is high enough, but the type of secular lament will often be obvious from the title. This would also allow for a parallel Sacred laments category. I've also wrote to User:Cydonia via his talk page to invite him to comment.

Reply by: Cydonia 14:47, 24 January 2011 (CST)

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Thanks for bringing this to my attention - I'd not been following the discussion at Talk:Musae Iovis (Nicolas Gombert) and so I'd assumed, as the category was a member of Category:Sacred music and the page mentioned the Lamentations of Jeremiah, that it would include both secular and sacred laments. That said, I've no objections to renaming it Secular laments and adjusting the use to suit. Category:Secular laments would leave open the possibility of Category:Sacred laments, though I don't know that the need for the latter category is so pressing as the former - as there is already a page Lamentations of Jeremiah, a category Category:Lamentations of Jeremiah and a page Absalon, fili mi to coordinate the main groups of sacred laments that I can think of and that are represented on CPDL at the moment, so perhaps we don't need a category to group together different types of sacred lament.

When the description on the current category page is reworded to reflect the outcome of this discussion, it might be worthwhile describing the types of lament included as something other than 'subcategories', unless it is actually proposed to make each of them a cat in its own right (which, I'd have thought, would be overcategorisation at the moment).

I too like Secular laments. Lamentations of Jeremiah contains no clue about the existence of the closely related Tenebrae responsories, and probably should be reorganized under Liturgy of the Hours/Matins/Tenebrae/Lessons/Lamentations of Jeremiah. Richard Mix 21:13, 26 January 2011 (CST)

Reply by: Jonathang 14 December 2012

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Can we not have a supercategory for "funerary works"? Not every funerary work qualifies as a lament or an elegy, or if that proposition is controversial why not just "lament"? Jonathang (talk) 12:18, 14 December 2012 (CST)

What to do about Sacred laments?

  • Posted by: Vaarky 00:53, 31 January 2011 (CST)
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Before renaming this category Secular laments, what should be done about the sacred pieces that are tagged as Laments? I think there is agreement not to have a Sacred laments category, so should the tags be removed or should they be replaced with something else?

Subcat:David's Lament would cover us for the time being, but I read the consensus as _for_ Sacred laments, which seems simpler. Other sub-categories would of course be Requiems, Holy Innocents, and a reorganized Tenebrae music. Lamentatio Sanctae Matris Ecclesiae Constantinopolitanae (Guillaume Dufay) stradles the secular, I suppose. Have I missed anything else registering on the sad-ometer? Richard Mix 04:19, 31 January 2011 (CST)
  • Posted by: Cydonia 14:39, 31 January 2011 (CST)
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To clarify, if this cat is renamed to 'Secular laments', mine's a !vote against 'Sacred laments' - not convinced of its usefulness. Category:David's Lament could be useful, for settings of Absalon, fili mi and the closely related texts, but otherwise I'd suggest that the various genres of Sacred music which have aspects of lamentation (Absalom, Lams of Jem, perhaps some pieces for Holy Innocents, anthems for the martyrdom of Charles I (though we don't have any here yet) etc.) aren't really in need of a cat to group them together. I'd be inclined to call a Requiem a Mass, rather than a Lament, and wonder if a Laments cat that includes Requiems is too broad to be useful.

I now see Chuck weighed in on the other page too. I too personally find Sacred laments less than useful for my own purposes, but the fact that someone could sell a publisher on an umbrella treatment of Requiems & Tenebrae (Music of Mourning and Consolation) should suggest to us that there may be a cpdl audience as well. Category:David's Lament is admirably focused, but where would those users look for it without a parent category? In case clarification is necessary, R, T & HI works would only be listed in the subcategories, yes? Richard Mix 18:03, 31 January 2011 (CST)

Reply by: Vaarky 22:52, 2 February 2011 (CST)

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Richard makes a good point. So it sounds as though we should create a Sacred laments page with as many appropriate categories as we can think of, and with a text description encouraging people to use the subcategory tags only whenever possible. Can someone create the Sacred laments page with the appropriate subcategories so the few sacred works currently categorized as Laments can be recategorized appropriately?

I've made Sacred laments, but the more I think about this the more I see the other point of view. I'd better sleep on it! Btw, I see there already is a David's lament page. Richard Mix 03:23, 3 February 2011 (CST)