Talk:Theresienmesse (Joseph Haydn)

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I have found out that mr. Michael Gibson´s edition of the Theresa Mass (CPDL #08480) is widely used. The reason for that is easy to understand, it can be downloaded for free, compared to the at least 10 € that you have to pay for a copy from a commercial publishing house. My first aim for this piece was to make a straightforward choral excerpt from mr. Gibson´s edition, just with a little better readability – better beaming, more slurs for the phrases etc. Unfortunately mr. Gibson did not leave any machine readable material for the score, but my notation program was able to reconstruct the score from the midi files. But when I, with mr. Gibson´s score in my right hand, listened to some commercial (in fact all British – Richard Hickox, sir John Eliot Gardiner, sir Neville Marriner) recordings, I could, for some of the movements here something: They were not singing as it is written in the score! At that time I realized that I had to go a little deeper into the material and make some comparisons with other sources. Fortunately enough, Haydn´s autograph manuscipt has survived and is now in the possesion of the Austrian National Library (ÖNB) in Vienna, Austria. This document has been scanned by the library and is now accessible via the internet: http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AL00116281

The document has also been duplicated into the IMSLP-Petrucci musical database http://imslp.org/wiki/Mass_in_B-flat_major,_Hob.XXII:12_%28Haydn,_Joseph%29

In my comparison I have used the following references, besides the autograph manuscript:

Bärenreiter BA4661, 1969

Carus Verlag 40.610, 2006

C.F. Peters 8581, 1987

The New Novello Choral Edition 078474, 2001

Wiener Philharmonischer Verlag 121, 1924

White-Smith Publ. Co. 310, 1885 (possibly a reprint of the first printed Novello edition)


At least the Bärenreiter and Carus editions are stamped “Urtext”, i.e. they must have been checked against the autograph manuscript, or at least based on the most reliable scholarly edition Joseph Haydn Werke Series XXIII vol. 3, edited by Günter Thomas and published by the german publishing house Henle http://www.henle.de/de/detail/index.html?Titel=Messen+Nr.+9-10_5582

Some of the deviations from the autograph are just minor editorial differences, one might say careless mistakes, but probably the editors of the earliest printed edition (Novello, ~ 1835) did not have access to Haydn´s autograph and had to rely on other hand written copies of the score. Errors threrein might then have been propagated to later editions. At least some of the errors are present in this edition from 1885. published by White-Smith Publ. Co., but possibly a reprint - with new plates - of the first printed Novello edition ("organ part by Novello" printed on the first score page):

http://imslp.org/wiki/Mass_in_B-flat_major,_Hob.XXII:12_%28Haydn,_Joseph%29#tab3

But severe problems occur in the “Quoniam tu solus” (last part of the Gloria movement), “Credo in unum Deum”, “Et resurrexit” (last part of the Credo movement) and “Benedictus”, where I have found major deviations from the autograph. This means, for example, that this edition is unusable in combination with a modern conductor´s score from a commercial publishing house following the autograph.

Here is what I have found in mr. Gibson´s edition so far. All the points on the list should not be regarded as errors – this is especially true for mr. Gibson´s suggestions for the execution of grace notes (and also the gruppetto suggestion for the soprano soloist in measure 65 of the Benedictus movement, also found in the Novello/White-Smith edition). The execution of the grace notes is otherwise completely up to the performer´s knowledge of the performance practice of a given composer or historical period. From a scholarly point of view one could critizise this changes, but I don´t think it was mr. Gibson´s intention to produce a scholarly correct edition. But it should perhaps have been spoken out more clearly that this edition is based upon old and nowadays obsolete 19th century sources. As a general conclusion mr. Gibson´s edition is now of historical interest ony and cannot be used for an authentic performance of the mass.


Error list CPDL #08480

General:

The dynamics seems to be fetched from the Novello/White-Smith edition, and are not always in accordance with what Haydn wrote in his autograph.


1.Kyrie

All parts (SATB), measure 1- 28, 92 – 104: time signature should be alla breve (2/2), not 4/4 in the adagio passages

All parts (SATB), measure 104: missing fermata

Soprano, solo, measure 22-23: lyrics error, the syllable "lei-" should be sung om the two first beats in both measures

Soprano, solo, measure 26-28: lyrics error, the syllable "-son" should start att the 1st beat of measure 27 (whole note) and last thoughout measure 28 with a tie

Soprano, measure 102, 2nd beat, missing grace note A to principal note F.

Alto solo, measure 22-23: lyrics error, the syllable "lei-" should be sung om the two first beats in both measures

Tenore, measure 64: pitch error, 3rd beat should be D, not Db (accidental removed)

Basso, measure 6-8: lyrics error, the syllable "-son" should start att the 1st beat of measure 7 (whole note) and last thoughout measure 8 with a tie

Basso, measure 41-42: lyrics error, the syllable "-e" in "Kyrie" should last to the 1st beat in measure 42 and the starting syllable "e-" in "eleison" should start at the 2nd beat (2 x 1/8) and the syllable "-lei-" should then start on the 3rd beat (half note).


2 a. Gloria in excelsis Deo

Soprano, measure 32: pitch error, the note should be D, not Bb.

Alto, measure 22 - 23: lyrics error, the phrase should be "De - e - o De - o" (the last -o comes in measure 24), same error as in the corresponding basso measures.

Alto, measure 31: the note should be a dotted 1/2 (F) and not 1/2 (F) slurred to 1/4 (Eb)

Alto, measure 32: pitch error, the note should be F, not D

Alto, measure 80, 1st beat: pitch error, the note should be F, not A

Tenore, measure 16, 1st beat: pitch error, the note should be Bb, not D.

Tenore, measure 58, 1st beat: pitch error, the note should be G, not Bb.

Tenore, measure 81, 2nd beat, syllable ”glo-”: pitch error, the note should be C, not D.

Tenore, measure 83, 2nd beat: same as for measure 81

Tenore, measure 91, 1st beat: should be 1/4 followed by 1/8 rest, not a dotted 1/4.

Basso, measure 13 - 14: lyrics error, the phrase should be "- ce - e - el - sis"

Basso, measure 22 - 23: lyrics error, the phrase should be "De - e - o De - o" (the last -o comes in measure 24)

Basso, measure 30 - 31: same lyrics error as i measure 22 - 23

The altos and the basses should sing in parallel in these measures!

Basso, measure 81, 2nd beat, syllable ”glo-”: pitch error, the note should be A, not Bb.

Basso, measure 83, 2nd beat: same as for measure 81.

Most of these errors are present in the obsolete Novello/white-Smith edition mentioned earlier. This must be interpreted as a major deviation from Haydn´s autograph

--MWE (talk) 20:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


2b – c. Gratias agimus tibi – Qui tollis

All parts (SATB): time signature should be alla breve (2/2) not 4/4.

All parts (SATB), measure 169: tempo alteration “più animato” not present in Haydn's autograph.

Soprano, measure 177-178: lyrics error, 1st syllable "-re" (in mi-se-re-re) should be sung on the 1st-3rd beat i measure 178 (1/2 + 1/4) and the last syllable "-re" on the 4th beat. No tie between measure 177 and 178.

Soprano, measure 179-180: same as for measure 177-178.

Soprano, measure 208: pitch error, the note should be Bb for both notes (1/2 + 1/2)

Soprano, measure 210: pitch error, the note should be C.

Alto, measure 209: rhytm error, the syllable "no-/(nos-)" should be sung on a whole note.

Alto, measure 210: pitch error, the note should be Eb.

Tenore, measure 185: 3rd beat, rhytm error, the syllable "no-" should be sung on a half note (Bb), not 1/4 + 1/4.

Tenore, measure 186: pitch error, the note should be Bb.

Tenore, measure 196: rhytm error, should be a tie från measure 196 + 1/4(C) + 1/4(Bb) + 1/2(Ab).

Tenore, measure 236: rhytm error, should be a whole note (D).

Tenore, measure 237: pitch error, the note should be D.

Tenore, measure 243: rhytm error, should be a whole note (D)

Tenore, measure 244: pitch error, the note should be D.


2 d. Quoniam

All parts (SATB), measure 321 – 322 and 334 – 335: The same phrase should be in repeated in both measures. The soloist parts passes over attacca to the chorus parts without rests. There should not be any rests in measure 321 and 334! This is a misunderstanding that could also be found in the Novello/White-Smith edition from 1885! This is a major deviation from the autograph.

Soprano, measure 256: 1st beat, should be a grace note + dotted 1/4.

Soprano, measure 269: 4th beat, missing note 1/4 (C) on syllable "tu".

Soprano, measure 279: 2nd beat should be 1/8 (Bb); 4th beat should be 1/4 (A).

Soprano, measure 288: 1st beat, lyrics error, the syllable "a-" (in "a-men") should be sung to the 2nd beat of measure 289.

Soprano, measure 320: should be a grace note + 1/2, but mr. Gibson has written a possible performance, 1/8 + 1/4 + 1/8

Soprano, measure 327: 2nd beat, pitch error, the note should be D (1/8).

Soprano, measure 333: 3rd beat should be 1/2 (D) with grace note D.

Alto, measure 283: lyrics error, the syllable "a-" (in "a-men") should be sung from the 3rd beat to the last beat of measure 284.

Alto, measure 285: lyrics error, the syllable "a-" (in "a-men") should be sung from the last beat to the 2nd beat of measure 288.

Alto, measure 299: some sources says A instead of F. Haydn has written F in the autograph manuscript.

Tenore, measure 269: 4th beat, missing note 1/4 (C) on syllable "tu".

Tenore, measure 279: 2nd beat should be 1/8 (D).

Tenore, measure 285: 1st beat, lyrics error, the syllable "a-" (in "a-men") should be sung to the 2nd beat of measure 286.

Tenore, measure 299: pitch error, the note should be F.

Tenore, measure 304: 2nd beat, pitch error, both notes (1/16 + 1/16) should be D.

Tenore, measure 334 - 336: lyrics error, the syllable "a-" (in "a-men") should be sung to the 1st beat of measure 336. The syllable "-men" should be sung on the 2nd beat (1/4), after that a new phrase ("a-men") starts at the 3rd beat (1/2).

Basso, measure 268: lyrics error, should be "Je-e-e - su".

Basso, measure 287: 1st beat, lyrics error, the syllable "a-" (in "a-men") should be sung to the 2nd beat of measure 288.

Basso, measure 290: lyrics error, the syllable "a-" (in "a-men") should be sung to the 3rd beat of measure 291. The syllable "-men" should be sung on the 3rd beat (1/4), after that a new phrase ("a-men") starts at the 4th beat (1/4).

Basso, measure 294: 3rd beat, lyrics error, the syllable "a-" (in "a-men") should be sung to the 1st beat of measure 296.

Basso, measure 296: lyrics error, 2nd beat, the syllable "a-" (in "a-men") should be sung to the 2nd beat of measure 297. The syllable "-men" should be sung on the 2nd beat (1/4), after that a new phrase ("a-men") starts at the 3rd beat (1/2).


3a. Credo in unum Deum

All parts, measure 8: lyrics error, should be genitive "terrae" (factorem coeli et terrae - maker of heaven and earth)

All parts (SATB), measure 13 – 16: This passage is completely wrong, both notes and lyrics! Here Haydn repeats the text vi-si-bi-li-um om-ni-um, et in-vi-si-bi-li-um, et in-vi-si-bi-li-um om-ni-um” (and not ”Et in unum Dominum Jesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum”), which is not in accordance with the ordinarium missae, but that´s the way the composer wanted it! It can be clearly seen in the autograph manuscript and modern editors should not tamper with the composer´s intentions! This is a major deviation from the autograph!

Alto, measure 3: rhytm error, 4th beat should be 1/8 + 1/8, Bb + A

Alto, measure 10: 2nd beat, pitch error, the notes should be A + G, 1/16 + 1/16.

Alto, measure 24: pitch error, the notes shold be G, 1/2 + 1/4.

Alto, measure 33: 2nd beat, rhytm error, should be even eighth notes (1/8 + 1/8), F.

Tenore, measure 10: 2nd beat, pitch error, the notes should be F + G, 1/16 + 1/16.

Tenore, measure 46: 3rd beat, pitch error, the note should be B (1/4).

Basso, measure 42-43: 4th beat in measure 42, lyrics error, the syllable "-scen-" should last to the 2nd beat of measure 43.


3c. Et resurrexit

Soprano solo , measure 133, 152: should be a grace note + 1/4, but mr. Gibson has written a possible performance, 1/8 + 1/8

Soprano, measure 153 – 154, should be sung by the soprano soloist only. The choral sopranos have a rhythm similar to the other choral voices. This is a major deviation from the autograph.

Soprano solo, measure 221: 1st - 4th beat, pitch error, the notes should be Bb + A + Bb (1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8).

Soprano, measure 137: 1st beat, rythm error, should be 1/8 + 1/8.

Soprano, measure 141: 1st beat, rythm error, should be 1/8 + 1/8.

Alto, measure 109: rythm error, should be 1/2 (A), not dotted 1/4 + 1/8 (A + G) (the latter possibly thought as an ornament).

Alto, measure 110: pitch error, the note should be A.

Alto, measure 112: 2nd beat, pitch error, the note should be G (1/8).

Alto, measure 124: 4th beat, pitch error, both notes should be F (1/8 + 1/8)

Alto solo , measure 129: should be a grace note + 1/4, but mr. Gibson has written a possible performance, 1/8 + 1/8

Alto, measure 141-142: 1st beat, rythm error, should be 1/8 + 1/8.

Alto, measure 199: 1st beat, pitch error, should be G for the last eight note in the beat.

Alto solo, measure 210: 3rd - 4th beat, pitch error, the notes should be F + G (1/8 + 1/8).

Tenore, measure 97: pitch error, the note should be G.

Tenore, measure 137, 141, 142, 144: 1st beat, rythm error, should be 1/8 + 1/8

Tenore solo , measure 147: should be a grace note + 1/4, but mr. Gibson has written a possible performance, 1/8 + 1/8

Tenore, measure 146 – 150, should be sung by the tenor soloist only. The choral tenors have tacet. This is a major deviation from the autograph.

Tenore, measure 170: 1st beat, rythm error, the note (1/8) should be C with a tie back to the last beat in measure 169.

Tenore, measure 216: rythm error, should be no tie to measure 217.

Tenore, measure 217: lyrics error, the syllable "-men" (in "a-men") should be sung on the 1st beat, new phrase with "a-men" starts on th 2nd beat.

Basso, measure 97. The autograph shows (as in the Peters and Bärenreiter editions) the notes G – G – F# – G – D in the phrase “Et re-sur-re-xit”, but mr. Gibson shows an ossia passage (also mentioned as a footnote in the Bärenreiter edition) G – F# – D – G – D.

Basso solo , measure 139: should be a grace note + 1/4, but mr. Gibson has written a possible performance, 1/8 + 1/8

Basso solo, measure 140: 1st beat, rythm error, should be 1/8 + 1/8.

Basso, measure 141, 142, 144: 1st beat, rythm error, should be 1/8 + 1/8

Basso solo, measure 208: 4th beat, rythm error, should be 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8 (F + D + Eb)

Basso solo, measure 211: 4th beat, rythm error, the syllable "-men" (in "a-men") should be sung on 1/8, followed by 1/8 rest.


4. Sanctus

Alto, measure 37: both notes should be F (1/4 + 1/4)

Tenore, measure 37: both notes should be C (1/4 + 1/4)

Basso, measure 2: tutti (not basso solo). In the autograph Haydn has written neither “solo” nor “tutti” but most modern editions asssume that it should be “tutti” from the beginning.

Basso, measure 2, beat 3: the note should be an F, not an Eb. This mistake is clearly from the erraneous Novello/White-Smith edition mentioned earlier.

--MWE (talk) 15:39, 2 April 2014 (UTC)


5.Benedictus

All parts (SATB): time signature should be alla breve (2/2) not 4/4.

All parts (SATB): measure 22: tutti from the phrase “in no-mi-ne”

All parts (solo SATB), measure 27 – 44/45: should be sung by the soloists only

Soprano solo, measure 36 (1st beat): should be a grace note + dotted 1/4, but mr. Gibson has written a possible performance, 1/8 + 1/4

Soprano solo, measure 65, beat 1 - 2: Here mr. Gibson has written down a gruppetto or turn execution (also present in the Novello/White-Smith edition) on Haydn´s urtext (dotted 1/4 + 1/8).

Soprano solo, measure 69, beat 4: the notes should be D – C on the syllables ”be-ne”, not A – C. This error can also be found in the Novello/White-Smith-edition.

Soprano, measure 25 (3rd beat), soprano solo measure 33 (1st beat): here Haydn has written what looks like an appoggiatura, i.e. a long grace note + a dotted 1/4 or 1/2, but mr. Gibson has written av possible performance, 1/8 + 1/4 or dotted 1/4.

Soprano, measure 94: rythm error, the syllable "-ni" (in "Do-mi-ni")should be sung on a half note.

Soprano, measure 107 – 109, 130 – 133 should be sung by the soprano soloist only. The choral sopranos have a rhythm similar to the other choral voices.

Soprano solo, measure 134-140: the soloist should sing unisone with the choral sopranos.

Alto, measure 44: pitch error, the last note (1/8) should be E.

Alto, measure 46 – 48 should be sung by the alto soloist only. The choral altos have a rhythm similar to the other choral voices.

The corresponding passages in mr. Gibson´s edition for the last two points are major deviations from the autograph.

Alto, measure 54: rythm error, 2nd beat, missing grace note to dotted 1/4. The last note should be F#.

Alto, measure 75: rythm error, the syllable "qui" should be sung on 1/4 (C).

Alto, measure 88: pitch error, the notes should be G + E + D + C (1/8 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8)

Alto, measure 89: pitch error, the notes should be B + A + C (dotted 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/4).

Alto, measure 90: pitch error, syllable "in" - the note should be G.

Alto, measure 94: rythm error, rythm error, the syllable "-ni" (in "Do-mi-ni")should be sung on a half note.

Alto, measure 132: pitch error, syllable "Ho-", the note should be B.

Tenore 22, 23: pitch error, syllable "in", the note should be D.

Tenore, measure 25: rythm error, the two last notes should be 1/8 + 1/8.

Tenore, measure 80: pitch error, the two last notes (1/8 + 1/8) should be A.

Tenore, measue 120: rythm error, the syllable "-ne" should be sung on 1/4 (E).

Tenore, measure 130: pitch error, syllable "Ho-", the note should be G.

Basso, measure 25: rythm error, the two last notes should be 1/8 + 1/8.

Basso, measure 73: lyrics error, the syllable ”be-” should be sung on the first three beats and ”-ne-” only on the last beat. This error is present in the Novello/White-Smith) edition, and is probaly a misinterpretation from some note copyist, when making copies from the autograph. This is a major deviation from the autograph.

Basso, measure 78 – 81: lyrics error, the basso voice should sing the same words as the other voices; ”in” on the last beat of measure 78, hereafter ”no – o – o – o” ”o – o – o – o” - ”o – o – mi – ne” in measure 79 – 81. The error is also present in the Novello/white-Smith edition, someone must have thought that this phrase needed an "enhancement" in some way. This is a major deviation from the autograph.

Basso, measure 101: rythm error, the sylable "qui" should be sung on 1/4.


6a. Agnus Dei

All parts (SATB): time signature should be alla breve (2/2) not 4/4.

All parts, measure 9: the dynamics should be f for all voices.

All parts, measure 15: rhytm error, should be a half note for all voices

All parts, measure 26: the dynamics shoulf be f for all voices.

All parts, measure 30: rhytm error, should be a half note for all voices

Soprano, measure 6: rhytm error, 3rd beat should be a half note, not a quarter note + a quarter rest.

Soprano, measure 8: the dynamics should be p.

Alto, measure 6: same as in soprano, measure 6.

Alto, measure 8: same as in soprano, measure 8.

Tenore, measure 15: pitch error, the note should be D.


6b. Dona nobis pacem

Soprano, measure 160: 3rd beat, should be a grace note + 1/4, but mr. Gibson has written a possible performance, 1/8 + 1/8

Soprano, measure 177: 3rd beat, should be a grace note + 1/4, but mr. Gibson has written a possible performance, 1/8 + 1/8

Alto, measure 148: lyrics and rythm error, should be 1/2 + 1/4 on the syllables "no-bis"

Alto, measure 149: lyrics error, new phrase "pa-" starts on the 1st beat and sholud last to the 2nd beat in measure 150.

Alto, measure 178: pitch error, 3rd beat, the note should be F.

Tenore, measure 89, 96: rythm error, 2nd beat should be 1/2 C, not 1/4 + 1/4 C + Bb.

Tenore, measure 90, 97: pitch error, the note should be C.

Tenore, measure 130: lyrics and rythm error, the phrase end with the syllable "-cem" on the 3rd. No tie to measure 131.

Tenore 131, measure 131: lyrics error, new phrase starts on the 1st beat with the syllable "do-" (in "do-na"). No tie between 2nd and 3rd beat.

Tenore, measure 132: lyrics error, the syllable "no-" should be sung on beat 1 and 2, and the syllable "-bis" on the 3rd beat.

Basso, measure 133 – 134: lyrics error, the phrase "pa-cem" shall end with the syllable ”-cem” on the last beat in measure 133. In measure 134 ”pa-cem” is repeated on beat 1 and 2.

Basso, measure 180: lyrics error, the syllable "pa-" (in "pa-cem") starts on the 1st beat in measure 180 and should to the 2nd beat in measure 190. No other syllables sholud be present in this phrase.

--MWE (talk) 08:34, 12 April 2014 (UTC)


Much can be said about Latin hyphenation. As an example, most printed sources hyphenate the word “nostram” as “no-stram” but both mr. Gibson and maestro Haydn himself uses “nos-tram”. More examples can be found in the lyrics for the piece but I have decided not to go deeper into this subject.

--MWE (talk) 18:38, 30 March 2014 (UTC)